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 BMW M1 Physics

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Jukka Närhi
Frank Verplanken
Alberto Ibañez
Carlo Pozzi
Guillaume Siebert
Tiago Malafaya
Steve Parker
Carl Larrad
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed 22 Sep 2010 - 17:21

New version up: http://www.mediafire.com/?funfbfhtmamaoav

This one includes:

-Doubled dampers adjustment ranges by halving range step
-Damper adjustments now are locked for slow and hard dampers (Makes setups quicker but less advanced)
-Increased front tyre heat generation
-Revised tyre pressure range

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Tiago Malafaya
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Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed 22 Sep 2010 - 17:42

This is how it looks after the tweaks.

Circuit is Zolder

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 63561661
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed 22 Sep 2010 - 21:00

But are you using the latest version I have uploaded? You should see less available suspension settings scratch

I just checked the file, and I uploaded the correct one. Be sure to install 0.9.4 :regl:
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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed 22 Sep 2010 - 21:35

Alberto i have tried your latest v 0.9. 4 while this is an big improvement on earlier versions ...

Im still struggling big time for grip and terrible understeer on faster corners and under braking to the point where im not enjoying driving it which is a first for me ....

Im Still driving at Hockenhiem an easy track which i know like the back of my hand and i have had several great results here
but im struggling to even complete 1 lap without spinning off ....

I Have to admit that im an average driver and dont yet fully understand how setups works
but the average driver would give up on this very quickly ...

I Still think at tracks like Hockenhiem the car should be cabable of a little more top end speed ...
The Tyres seem to heat up a lot better ,not completed enough laps yet but is it still possible for them to overheat ....

I Have also discovered tonight that the rear wing is adjustable also multiple gear ratios are allowed
and i think this would be a worthy addition to the mod...

see link and scroll down to Cars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M1_Procar_Championship .....

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry to be so negative but i just hope that when we release the new version of the mod that it will appeal to drivers with all driving abilitys ....Hopefully people will come back wanting more :top:




Last edited by Carl Larrad on Wed 22 Sep 2010 - 23:51; edited 8 times in total
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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 65
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed 22 Sep 2010 - 23:09

Just tested newer version around monaco 79,it seems alot better,but only issue for me was the lack of brakes or engine braking,could also be caused by the lower front spring setting. :top: in the 1.42s now round monaco btw,also an adjustable brake pressure is needed,at 100% it causes alot of the understeer.
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 0:06

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
But are you using the latest version I have uploaded? You should see less available suspension settings scratch

I just checked the file, and I uploaded the correct one. Be sure to install 0.9.4 :regl:


Sorry m8, I posted this before noticing you had uploaded a new version. I was testing when you did it, so I arrived late Wink
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 13:48

Well guys, I think we have a problem now. Summing up the (IMHO very justified) complaints:

- The car has low top speed
- Brakes are underpowered
- Understeer at corner entrance is too high, coupled with easy oversteer at corner exit when accelerating

However, the friggin lap times ARE correct, in fact nearly exact to real life :doh:

This means that the M1 was a slower car than we thought, and more specifically, that it probably was overpowered for its braking and cornering abilities. I have readed in old motor-magazine articles that drivers complained about the difficulty to driving the PROCAR, so it might certainly have been like that. Also, if you take a look at videos of track days in M1s, you will notice that cornering speed isn't certainly too fast:

Silverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVkY8oA3RlE

Silverstone 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbkkxwzK9HE&feature=related

Zolder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcbytNSCVZ0&feature=related

Valencia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHvWbwjuT4w&feature=related

Valencia 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l3kIA2UaAA&feature=related

So if I make it faster around corners and with more braking power (I.e. more pleasent to drive), we will need to further reduce the acceleration and top speed if we want to keep in realistic lap times. And personally I think that it currently might be already underperforming in the acceleration and top speed area, given that it is a 1000kg car with nearly 500 BHP.

I can easily make it more pleasent around corners by increasing front tyre grip, tweaking a bit suspension to make it harder and give it more braking power, but it will be a good 5-8 seconds faster around the average track.

The question is therefore: Do we want it to be faster, even at the expense of realistic lap times?



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Frank Verplanken
League Owner
Frank Verplanken


Number of posts : 13574
Age : 48
Location : Nice, France
Registration date : 2008-09-08

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 14:45

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
The question is therefore: Do we want it to be faster, even at the expense of realistic lap times?

I sadly have no time to devote to testing to help yall out, but if I may express my opinion I'd rather have an accurate mod as close as possible to the real cars and their performances Smile :papy: .
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finally gone :)
Racing Legend



Number of posts : 3192
Age : 32
Location :
Registration date : 2008-10-27

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 15:13

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
- The car has low top speed
- Brakes are underpowered
- Understeer at corner entrance is too high, coupled with easy oversteer at corner exit when accelerating

Those who want that may need to buy F1 2010 Arrow
+1 with Frank
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 15:21

I just clocked a real M1 in one of those videos doing a race lap (Not just a track day) at Valencia circuit in 1:48

That's approximately the fastest race lap time achieved by the 2007 BMW 320iS Touring Car, which has apporximately 280 HP, i.e. 200 LESS than the M1. Obviously, if they both achieve similar lap times, the reason must be brakes, suspension/tyre and a bit of aerodynamics....

I suggest that someone loads the Valencia circuit and records a quick lap there (I'd do that myself but with a gamepad the results is ridiculous), so we can compare it with the Youtube video and see where the car is faster or slower....that would be a good guide to know what aspects of the car can be fine tuned Smile

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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 65
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 18:03

Alberto,if the gear ratios were adjustable,it would cure alot of those problems,Try it with adjustable ratios and see how that goes first+adjustable brake pressure like real life cars :top:
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 18:07

I have found some interesting further info ...

watching in Youtube this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQkFHwHGQw the commentator says that the nearly 480BHP cars reach a top speed in the Hockenheim straights of 270 km/h (168 MPH) so it seems we have the aerodynamics correctly set! :regl:

if you watch the video you will see the cars sliding through the old parabolic Ostkurve, and even going out there with understeer (Min 1:42). Also watch Nicky lauda doing the stadium part 1:53 onwards ... he seems to go slow through there. I took the chrono and it took him 33 seconds from turn in on the first curve to the finish line. Will fire up the game and see how long it takes me :hum:


Last edited by Alberto Ibañez on Thu 23 Sep 2010 - 18:09; edited 1 time in total
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 18:08

Steve I will do, don't worry, I have thought of three different final ratios, for long, mid and urban tracks.

[EDIT]

OK I just did the same section than Nicky Lauda in 35 seconds. The difference is clearly based on the pad I'm using with some drving aids (Which have a penalty) -and of course it's also that I'm no Nicky Lauda LOL-

As I understand it, the car is now correctly set up both in grip/suspension and aero.

At this point, I would suggest doing only the following modifications:

- Some minor tweaks in suspension (More rigid springs)
- Adjustable brake pressure
- Adjustable rear wing
- 3 final gear ratios
- Revise front tyre heat logic


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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 18:33

I don't think the brakes are underpowered... they simply lock too much, loosing stopping power, with adjustable brake pressure that will be cured, IMO.

The other thing, and I don't really know if I'm right or wrong, is that the M1, being a mid-engined car should not understeer so heavily, specially under deccelaration, what I mean is that the centre of gravity of it is in the middle, so it should turn itself like if it had a pole stuck in the middle of the car
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 20:24

Quote :
I don't really know if I'm right or wrong, is that the M1, being a mid-engined car should not understeer so heavily, specially under deccelaration, what I mean is that the centre of gravity of it is in the middle, so it should turn itself like if it had a pole stuck in the middle of the car

Not necessarily. Mid-engined cars tend to have understeer at corner entrance, because they lack weigth at the front. An extreme case of that are rear-engined cars like the Porsche 911. To worsen things, the M1 has a BIG difference in wheel size front/rear, so it has good traction. Theoretically, playing with brake bias and differential lock you can make it more neutral.

Anyway, for the latest tests I have raised spring stiffness and made other minor changes, and now the car is more satisfactory. Although also a bit faster :doh: Nevertheless it's still a small increase and I believe it's worth it.

http://www.mediafire.com/?03ei1iw07hs2uzc

I will be out the whole weekend, so you have plenty of time to test this. Happy racing! :champ:
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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 65
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu 23 Sep 2010 - 20:28

Alberto Ibañez wrote:


As I understand it, the car is now correctly set up both in grip/suspension and aero.

At this point, I would suggest doing only the following modifications:

- Some minor tweaks in suspension (More rigid springs)
- Adjustable brake pressure
- Adjustable rear wing
- 3 final gear ratios
- Revise front tyre heat logic



quite agree :top:

also as Tiago said adjustable brake pressure will cure wheel lockups,and overheating front tires
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeFri 24 Sep 2010 - 18:30

Here's what I think so far after the last rev.

I got 1 sec. faster (+-) but I think it's worth it, the car still understeers a bit but not that much like before. It now oversteers a lot when exiting corners if you're not careful with the gas. Tyre temps are perfect, brakes so much nicer to use with the adjustable pressure and you need to work hard to do a good laptime and I just LOVE THAT!! :clap:

So I don't mind the car being a little faster than reality as long as it recreates the behaviour the real one had :clap: :hello:

So here it is and check how good this mod has become :top:

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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat 25 Sep 2010 - 7:16

Things are really starting to take shape this version is so such much better than the last version
its much easier for me to push know my laptimes at hockenhiem although not important is 2:12
is some 6 seconds quicker than the last version ,And more importantly Only 3 seconds shy of the real M1 Laptime ....

I Think a good driver would be bang on 2:09 or faster here ..... :clap:

I dont know if its me but if you use full wing it feels like the fronts lifting up i just wondered
would this cause understeer at tracks like Monaco ..... scratch

The tyre temp is perfect ive not done any long runs yet so i wonder how long the tyres will last we
need to make sure they last for the race without pitting ....

I wish i knew what speeds they where hitting at Hockenhiem just before the first chicane im hitting
175 mph just before i bang the brake pedal and go into the chicane i think this should be slightly more ....

There cant be many tracks where you would get up to and above that speed so just a little more top end speed would give you the impression that the car wants to go more other than surprisingly seeing the rev limiter come on at 175 mph ...

Am i right in thinking if you increase Top end Speed this will increase the cars speed throughout the gears which makes laptimes quicker or is it possible to change just the top end speed ......

Well done on all the revisions so far I Love it .... Wink

That just leaves me to say have the weekend off mate you deserve it and oh !!!!


Happy Birthday :drink:

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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat 25 Sep 2010 - 7:44

Nice video Tiago i have a bit of catching up to do very nice lap

Good to see your sticking with the hair removal cream car

And those wheels look ace lol!
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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat 25 Sep 2010 - 7:49

Heres another great video of Nurburgring nice to be able to see the driver wrestle with the car
and a nice fight with the Cassini car Wink

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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat 25 Sep 2010 - 13:08

Is it me or that M1 has a 6 speed gearbox?


And Happy Birthday Alberto :drink:
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 15:42

Hi guys,

back from Milan, was a really nice stay and what a lovely city, with lots of Ferraris and Maserattis around :D

Quote :
I dont know if its me but if you use full wing it feels like the fronts lifting up i just wondered
would this cause understeer at tracks like Monaco ..... scratch

Don't think so, as the speeds reached are much slower and hence the downforce in the rear not as noticeable on the opposite end.

Quote :
I wish i knew what speeds they where hitting at Hockenhiem just before the first chicane im hitting
175 mph just before i bang the brake pedal and go into the chicane i think this should be slightly more ....

Apparently 175 is correct, according to the video I linked before :hum:

Quote :
There cant be many tracks where you would get up to and above that speed so just a little more top end speed would give you the impression that the car wants to go more other than surprisingly seeing the rev limiter come on at 175 mph ...

The current gear ratio would be just above the intermediate final gear of the three I have currently planned. That way, for Hockenheim you would not find the current one usable, specially when slipstreaming during the race.

This might make the car reach a higher top end speed, but with slower acceleration, so lap times could eventually stay more or less similar.

I suspect, however, that the adjustable final gear ratio might again improve lap times on some tracks ... Suspect so let's wait and see how much.

Quote :
Is it me or that M1 has a 6 speed gearbox?

No, it's a 5 speed, but it is a dog-leg gearbox, just as the one I had in my E30 M3 :D

Gears are placed like this:

R-2-4
1-3-5

Take a read here and you'll see why it is so good for the older competition cars (Now with sequentials it's irrelevant): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_leg_gearbox

I'm glad that you all are liking the mod now. We're getting there :clap:
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Carlo Pozzi
Pro Driver
Carlo Pozzi


Number of posts : 805
Age : 32
Location : Milan, Italy
Registration date : 2009-11-28

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 15:56

Carl Larrad wrote:

The tyre temp is perfect ive not done any long runs yet so i wonder how long the tyres will last we
need to make sure they last for the race without pitting ....

Did a 20 lap run at Zolder , i think they'll last an entire race, even on harder tracks for tyres (like the Osterreichring)
I'm going just half a second quicker than before (1.38.4-1.38.9)

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 HTTACUFZ







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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 17:06

THX Alberto glad you had a great time .....

I Did watch your excellent race video did not catch the commentry in German lol!
Nice to see a video of them actually fighting it out in anger ........

Also there is a car that ive not seen before ,right at the beginning of the video there is the Arvor car which
is orange and black so that is a nice find for the 1979 season ....Ive never seen a pic of this car from the side
so looks like a repaint on this car ... :top:

THX Carlo for the info on the tyre reliability .....

I Was just wondering know we have slowed the M1's down does this mean all the AIW is way to quick
as when i have been testing they are flying past me .... :doh:
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Frank Verplanken
League Owner
Frank Verplanken


Number of posts : 13574
Age : 48
Location : Nice, France
Registration date : 2008-09-08

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 17:58

Beware with modern videos of M1s racing as they might not necessarily be to Procar specs. There were several racing developments for the M1, and particularly the March tuned ones which were used in Group 5 endurance racing and IMSA, and which were faster and lighter than the Procar cars. And of course other variables like the tyres added to the gap between them. I'd say the Procar cars were around 475 HP for 1050/1100 kg, while the Group 5 cars had around 500 HP but for at least 100 kg less...
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