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 BMW M1 Physics

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Jukka Närhi
Frank Verplanken
Alberto Ibañez
Carlo Pozzi
Guillaume Siebert
Tiago Malafaya
Steve Parker
Carl Larrad
12 posters
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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 18:02

After watching Alberto's you tube video i discovered a car which is already painted but have never seen a pic
of the side of the car before it would also seem that the colour is wrong i think its more of an orange colour
with black underneath .....
Has anyone seen any pics of this car so i can confirm this as i would like to repaint
it the correct colour .....

Its the ecurie arvor car driven by Jean Lafosse in 1979 ...

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Arvor_10

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Arvor_11
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 19:17

Quote :
Beware with modern videos of M1s racing as they might not necessarily be to Procar specs. There were several racing developments for the M1, and particularly the March tuned ones which were used in Group 5 endurance racing and IMSA, and which were faster and lighter than the Procar cars. And of course other variables like the tyres added to the gap between them. I'd say the Procar cars were around 475 HP for 1050/1100 kg, while the Group 5 cars had around 500 HP but for at least 100 kg less...

I have also been thinking that *probably* some of the responsability for the quicker laps we are gettings lies in the fact that we are using a tyre model from a modern slick (I borrowed it from GTL), not from the slick the PROCARs raced on in the 70s-80s. I suppose that a modern slick, even if same sized could be responsable for 1s to 2s better laps?

I can downgrade the grip in a mild way, trying to make it less noticeable (And not changing the good car balance we have now) but achieving slightly slower lap times, if you guys consider it worth trying Very Happy

BTW if I had not mentioned it before, I must say that you are a great bunch of enthusiastic and helpful people :clap: without your help I would be terribly lost as to what direction to take; You are great and quick testers and produce excellent feebback. Developing physcis with you is a pleasure :hello:
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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 21:31

Your very kind Alberto you should grab that wheel and come racing with us ... Wink

Leave your periscope alone for one night :hihi:


Last edited by Carl Larrad on Sun 26 Sep 2010 - 22:11; edited 1 time in total
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeSun 26 Sep 2010 - 21:52

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
BTW if I had not mentioned it before, I must say that you are a great bunch of enthusiastic and helpful people :clap: without your help I would be terribly lost as to what direction to take; You are great and quick testers and produce excellent feebback. Developing physcis with you is a pleasure :hello:

Thanks Alberto, The pleasure is all ours (I guess I can talk for everybody) and I think this mod was something to make better, since we all loved it, despite the erratic physics, but things are going the right way for a great championship next year and, of course, for everyone who wants to use this mod :top:
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Carl Larrad
Racing Legend
Carl Larrad


Number of posts : 6751
Age : 59
Location : Swindon , UK
Registration date : 2008-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 18:02

Do we think this is good enough for Public Release Know .... Wink
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 19:08

It's more challenging and much much more fun and driveable, but I think it's up to Alberto at this stage to say if is finished or not, if there is anything else to test.... :hihi:
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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 19:48

hm
i try it yesterday. but i am a noob. no lap completed.
I dont like rfactor to much so is hard to say to me if is good.

But lets do race first before final go.

one thing only:
i dont think that 3500 ccm 6th liner have so poor torque on low revs. i know that he have camshafts for high revs but must have some more torque on lower rpms.

how did u guys find that torque?


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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 19:52

older engine have on 4000 rpm 340 N-m
new only 250 N-m
i think that first one is more accurate.
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 19:59

Sanjin Haler wrote:
hm
i try it yesterday. but i am a noob. no lap completed.
I dont like rfactor to much so is hard to say to me if is good.

But lets do race first before final go.

one thing only:
i dont think that 3500 ccm 6th liner have so poor torque on low revs. i know that he have camshafts for high revs but must have some more torque on lower rpms.

how did u guys find that torque?



That depends on what kind of Rpm's you're talking........ It goes well beyond 3500 rpm with max torque at 7000 rpm, so I think it is correct

And looking at Steve's Graph the car has 387 Nm of torque at 7000 rpm
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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 20:21

Sanjin Haler wrote:
older engine have on 4000 rpm 340 N-m
new only 250 N-m
i think that first one is more accurate.


first picture in tread shows (older engine)
second picture of engen.ini is upgraded engine and i call it new engine.


i think that old engine or first picture is better cos car had more torque at 4000 rpms.

max torque at 7000 is ok.

I did few laps in monaco and i am forced to use 1 gear to much. i saw them going on some video before tunel in second gear not first. I THINK.
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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 65
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 21:12

Thats because it has no adjustable gears yet Sanjin,try it when the gears can be altered :top:
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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 21:49

Steve Parker wrote:
Thats because it has no adjustable gears yet Sanjin,try it when the gears can be altered :top:

Yes i know but whit more torque less shifting. shifting = time loose. Casino mus be driven in 3rd. i want more torque at 4000 rpms.


Speed limiter? was it in 79?

And how about shifting. I drive lots of games whit g25 shifter. In GPL it heps to improve lap times cos makes faster shifts. same in GTP(nascar) But some mods in rFactor using h shift slows shifts. ( I pull from 3rd to 4th gear and lose 0.1 sec cca and than games take his 0.5(cca dont know how much) sec for shift and that is to much time i think.) I notice that in some mods. other works or have option to select h pattern and there is no that 0.5 sec for shifting, it is instant. can be that put in this mod? Only problem is that driver than driving on paddles are slower. but that i suggest to speed up that auto shift.
Did any one understand this?


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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 22:06

I think I did understand it more or less Smile

Yes, shift delay is included to simulate the H-pattern gearbox, even for those who use paddles. Good observation :top:

As for the gear ratios, I'm currently tweaking them. So far I have a short ratio that gives you a top speed of 220km/h and is very good for Monaco. Then a medium one with 270km/h top, good for medium speed circuits, and finally a longer one for Hockenheim, Osterreichring and maybe Silverstone.

About the engine torque: It's difficult to say wether it is accurate or not because we don't have the real torque curve of the car. But with 134HP/litre, I doubt much that it had low-end torque, specially being a 6 in-line. 6 in lines are well known for their minimal vibrations (Even less than a V6) but also for their lack of low-end torque. BMW himself could not cure that in their road engines (2.5 litres) until they implemented the VANOS variable distribution in the E36, and even then the 325i had problems. I owned an E46 325i coupe some years ago, and it worked well in low revs, but that was the first time BMW did it well.



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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeTue 28 Sep 2010 - 22:22

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
I think I did understand it more or less Smile

Yes, shift delay is included to simulate the H-pattern gearbox, even for those who use paddles. Good observation :top:



nice but when driving on g25 shifter it takes time to shift. and than u are forcing me to drive on paddles cos is faster. and i dont like to drive on paddles.

can there be a car upgrade to kick that delay? like in HISTORIC GT & TOURING CARS

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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 1:57

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
I doubt much that it had low-end torque, specially being a 6 in-line. 6 in lines are well known for their minimal vibrations (Even less than a V6) but also for their lack of low-end torque. BMW himself could not cure that in their road engines (2.5 litres) until they implemented the VANOS variable distribution in the E36, and even then the 325i had problems. I owned an E46 325i coupe some years ago, and it worked well in low revs, but that was the first time BMW did it well.


I was afraid to talk about that but couldn't agree with you more..... I've driven an e36( I don't know if I'm spelling the right one Rolling Eyes ) 325i and I noticed the lack of torque until High revs.........

I never discussed the "artificial" shift delay because we once talked about that here in another mod and achieved the conclusion to leave it as it is.....
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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 9:00

does any one here drives whit h-shift? or is it me only?
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Ludovic Tiengou
Racing Legend
Ludovic Tiengou


Number of posts : 2986
Age : 56
Location : Grenoble far away from Brittany, France
Registration date : 2008-12-12

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 10:45

Sanjin Haler wrote:
does any one here drives whit h-shift? or is it me only?

I'm driving with H-shift and tee toe. But I haven't try the new version of the mod as I'm slowing down the time I'm spending on race sims.
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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 11:59

Sanjin Haler wrote:
does any one here drives whit h-shift? or is it me only?


I use H-shifter too and no, I don't like "artificial" shift delays too :langue:
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Sanjin Haler
Club Driver
Sanjin Haler


Number of posts : 140
Age : 42
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2010-02-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 13:45

Tiago Malafaya wrote:
Sanjin Haler wrote:
does any one here drives whit h-shift? or is it me only?


I use H-shifter too and no, I don't like "artificial" shift delays too :langue:

:drink: :clap:

thats two. we need patch Smile

other things are ok. i also noticed that car realy don't roll on front and rear susp. i see that car is so low but it drives like karting. is that ok?
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 13:54

Quote :
Do we think this is good enough for Public Release Know .... Wink

Some details still need tweaking. I'm currently testing the final gear ratios, and engine temperatures need revising. PROCARs had some cooling problems in certain slow tracks, and I would like to replicate that.

@Sanjin: I'll look into the Historic GT mod and see how they did it. But I don't have a G25 to test, so I might need your help. Stay tuned here Smile
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 13:55

Quote :
i also noticed that car realy don't roll on front and rear susp. i see that car is so low but it drives like karting. is that ok?

It's difficult to tell how much suspension travel the M1 has, but it should be very short.
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Jukka Närhi
Racing Legend
Jukka Närhi


Number of posts : 1905
Age : 37
Location : Finland
Registration date : 2009-12-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 16:31

I've got the shifter delay upgrade ready, in case it's needed.

I've noticed the car tends to get out of shape the second you go over the curb. Does the lack of suspension travel cause the car to sort of jack up and throw itself sideways or something?
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 16:46

Quote :
I've got the shifter delay upgrade ready, in case it's needed.

Yes please, post it here or upload it anywhere I can download it.

Quote :
I've noticed the car tends to get out of shape the second you go over the curb. Does the lack of suspension travel cause the car to sort of jack up and throw itself sideways or something?

I also noticed that, but the car has more or less the same suspension travel as a modern GTN, i.e. some 5 cm compression upwards (Bound). I can try to make it larger, but I believe 5cm is correct for this stiff suspension car. scratch

Here is the latest version: http://www.mediafire.com/?dtzxx57hrr3xc5r

This one is now a serious release candidate. The changes introduced are:

-Added 3 final gear ratios to choose from (220/260/300 Km/H top speed)
-Revised Anti-Sway bars to allow better tiuning of car behaviour. The car has now slightly less understeer, be sure to tweak sway bars to your liking as they have now more effect.
-Engine heats up a bit more now due to cooling openings reduced.
-Tyre grip slightly reduced. Not noticeable when driving, but car is now a bit slower in turns.
-Aero drag sightly reducef to allow higher top speed at fast tracks (Now it tops around 285 Km/h at Hockenheim)






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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 17:09

On second thought I decided to follow your suggestion and increased suspension travel in compression from 5 to 8 cm. I liked the result, so I have added it as 0.9.7 for everyone to test and compare with 0.9.6 (This file is still available).

The file: http://www.mediafire.com/?9r1v9xre222h88r

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Tiago Malafaya
Racing Legend
Tiago Malafaya


Number of posts : 3384
Age : 46
Location : Porto, Portugal
Registration date : 2008-10-05

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PostSubject: Re: BMW M1 Physics    BMW M1 Physics  - Page 5 Icon_minitimeWed 29 Sep 2010 - 17:12

I'll test it tomorrow Alberto. Too much things to do today :smil20:

Hope this get's done with this release :top:
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