Round 3 - Road Atlanta [Feb 11th]

Those cars are very challenging to drive, definitely the most difficult cars I have ever raced online with. Which is why I practice more for these races than I normally would, even for league races. I speak from experience when I say that especially the older cars in the series are even more difficult to keep on the road even though they are slower.

That said, the racing in this series has been very respectful and clean overall so far and I found that very encouraging as a newcomer. I've been practising on the server over the last few days (About 10 o'clock European time mostly) and haven't seen too many people online at once at any time, but pretty much everyone I met on there posed absolutely no danger on the track to me and was a pleasure to race with - coincidence?

Matthias Weber wrote:

Third Thing - i cannot believe that laptimes, the fastest cars have been 11 seconds faster than the real cars that time??? Did we drive another track variant or are the cars way too fast?

I'm pretty sure the track is a lot wider, smoother and straighter than the real thing. I've never been there, but other renditions in sims (later layouts) are narrower, with tighter turns and more severe elevation changes. But that's not a biggie to me, as long as the track is raceable, which it was.

The admin team failed to, both at Mosport and here, to notice in time that the tracks had too much grip to be period correct lap time wise. 

This is mainly down to the fact that we wanted to get the F1 mod ready for release. 

Hopefully it won't happen again and we'll be able to enjoy period laptimes that the car's should be doing

Jonatan Acerclinth wrote:

to notice in time that the tracks had too much grip to be period correct lap time wise.

So you're saying that Mon-Tremblant grip was spot on? Because that was a LOT lower grip than the other two, but interestingly the car felt almost easier to control there because it didn't sway as much and let you know the limit earlier. Looking forward to that!

Quote :

So you're saying that Mon-Tremblant grip was spot on? Because that was a LOT lower grip than the other two, but interestingly the car felt almost easier to control there because it didn't sway as much and let you know the limit earlier. Looking forward to that!

Both tracks Mosport and Road Atlanta had been used here before so we asumed that part was all right - when the laptimes started shooting through the roof I got suspicious and dug into the terrain files. And indeed, the track creators or converters had given it no less than 10% more grip that it should have

When we noticed this we decided not to make more patches because everybody had already practiced and made setups, etc, but we will for sure check that in the future tracks.

The problem with grip being higher is not just that you go quicker, the real problem is that the tires and suspensions are calculated for the proper G forces that such a car withstood, so when you go much quicker through a turn or braking or accelerating you are in fact causing weird deformation in the tires and reactions that the damping in the suspension were not meant to soak etc, etc. This all results in a less forgiving, less precise and more skittish behaviour as well as worse feedback about what it is doing. 

You have already noticed the cars were better at St Jovite, I lowered the grip at Road Atlanta to correct values and tested offline and indeed the cars were way better to drive. Still quicker than real life, but that is down to the track being shorter and wider.

looking at qualifying times, the 107% rule would have meant everyone from chacon in 23rd and back wouldn't be able to race.

107% being around 4.5 seconds in that instance. and theres probably a similar amount of time difference between the fast cars and the slow cars without taking the drivers capabilities into account.

penalise things that need penalising, but 9 drivers being arbitrarily parked just seems stupid.

and anyone can spin twice in these cars.

Ciao,
first of all, I want to apologize to the drivers I have involved in
my many driving errors, committed in last night's race.

On lap 5, after a good start and 5 good laps with Mattias and Bruno, I skidded around cornering and involving Mattias who could not avoid me.

Unfortunately I did not immediately identify the problem of broken suspension, the car had problem only in the right corners that are not many in Road Atlanta. The tires were not ruined also but smoking only in turn, and so I unfortunately delayed to go back to pits. From the broadcast, after the race, I saw that Alberto had called me to the pits but sincerely in race with the car unstable I didn't notice the message.

Repairs to the pits cost me more than two laps.

Returning to track, in last position, always trying to facilitate drivers much faster than me.

Unfortunately, after a few laps, I made the biggest mistake of my race ... out of turn 5, with Gabriel Sterr and David Jundt very close to me, I preferred to stay all right side of the track, and not cut to the left, but approaching turn 6 I missed the braking point, I trying to brake harder and put the car aside to cause less damage possible to Gabriel and David, but was not enough I hit David pushing him towards Gabriel and causing the lift on 2 wheels, which unfortunately became a rollover after David hitting Gabriel.
I am very sorry for my mistake, but I think that as Gabriel says it is just "a driver error".

David Jundt wrote:

Can't believe it still...

@Marazzi: You're a Texas driver, right?

It shows.

I am sorry to read what David Jund wrote, which I consider offensive to a team of 20 drivers, with whom I have only done 2 races recently and which have nothing to do with my participation in the HSO races for the last year. In 2017 I participated mostly in WEC 82 with a Gr5, very long races, many times lapped, always trying to facilitate.
But David, for me the controversy ends here.

In the final part of the race, from my lap 35 to the finish line I had fun with Dave Miller, who was running around my same times and swapping lots of overtaking.
I still want to apologize to Martin Lacina for my spin at the last turn of the track, involving him who could not avoid me.

Finally, finding myself directly quoted among the 9 drivers that Austin...

Austin Ogonoski wrote:

I crunched some numbers, we had 32 cars today. 10 of them would earn points, another 13 wouldn't earn points but still fell within the 107% range. 23 cars is a pretty good field unto itself. However, that means we had 9 cars out there that were essentially rolling safety hazards. Why do we need 9 extra cars inflicting pain and suffering on those in contention for points?

I can only say that I do not agree with his judgment, but in the racing spirit, that I believe to have find in HSO, I really appreciate what was written by Jason, Alberto, Yves and Sky (more then twice spin for me Yesterday   ).

In any case, I apologize for my mistakes and I will accept what the admin direction will decide.

Congratulations to Yves and all drivers who finish the race

also,

Austin Ogonoski wrote:

9 extra cars inflicting pain and suffering

I agree totally, Sky! And I think Alberto's mention of the 107% rule was only meant as an example and not for consideration here.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is all not that big a deal! I believe Austin was still very frustrated when he made his post race comments. And I understand that. I've been there myself. That's why I force myself to wait at least a day before posting any opinions on the forum after a race.

As far as the tracks go, I thought Road Atlanta was perfect for these cars. As Gerard mentioned, you could feel the car nearing adhesion and throw it as you wished. BUT, as is accurate, the season has begun with its three most difficult tracks -- considering elevation changes, blind apexes, et.al.

The admins even made a big point at Atlanta that local yellows should be paid serious heed. But the nature of the course and these cars difficulty with evasive maneuvers still did not guarantee a driver would not be caught out. BUT THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE!

This community welcomes anybody, ANYBODY, who wants to come in and give it an honest try. And most anyone here would gladly help with setups and/or advice to bring them along.

What I can't abide, nor should the league, are the drivers who, with these very difficult cars and very difficult tracks, show up on race day to do their recon and sort their basics while others are trying to compete! That is evidenced by the fact that the driver/s is/are never on the Hot Laps page or the server until race day.

I do not condemn these drivers or believe they should leave the series. But by all means, please put in the time to test/practice and use the resources available to you at HSO to become more competitive. And, lacking the time/commitment for that, you might want to reevaluate your use of Sunday evenings.

Sky Willis wrote:

also,

Austin Ogonoski wrote:

9 extra cars inflicting pain and suffering

Oh, please do get over yourself, Austin!

Having the wherewithal to have real life racing experience, one would think a gentleman might want to help sim racers enhance their meager existence racing only on the computer.

Or did you just come to club the baby seals?

@Raul, likewise, thank you for the great racing as well. It was very enjoyable and kept my attention from start to finish.

Another unassuming rise to the top 5 and given the level of competition in the top 10 yesterday, I'll definitely take it.

As the week wore on I became worried I didn't quite have the pace to even see the top 5, and reality probably is that I didn't. I did, but only a lap or two at a time, then the tires would heat too much and the car was a slippery mess. So, I spent much of race balancing trying to do some fast laps and backing off a bit to cool the tires.

I saw in my first recon laps at the track that traffic was going to play a big role in this race, so I attempted to prep for that as well. Mostly, just being super cautious when I'd see yellows, which doesn't always help and it can be dicey on what action need be taken when incidents arise, but an abundance of caution never hurts.

And speaking of abundance of caution....when did front runners just start running over lapped cars that "won't move out of their way"? There's this little thing called mutual respect...those guys in those slower, lapped cars, they have every right to a chunk of track as well. Sometimes they misread the situation and deviate from their line and then a shunt here or there is expected....but what I saw in the replay was pathetic, to be honest.
Car competing for the top spots or not, you have no right to just shunt them when they hold their line and do as they should. If you must, you wait a turn or two, but driving over top of them is just bad form.

These aren't league edition cars. There are going to be huge time differences sometimes. It's not always down to lack of skill (yes, I'm parroting, but I'll repeat it, I don't care)....If some 107% rule were to be implemented, well thanks a lot, you just killed part of the field and thus what makes racing here so damned great

Navigating lapped traffic is a part of racing. Lapped traffic often times affects real races. Deal with it, I guess.

If a 2 spin rule was implemented, well I know a certain someone that needs their Mont Tremblant results stripped because, um...dude, you spun a hell of a lot more than 2 times during that one

Anyways...race was excellent, broadcast was great again (thanks guys) and lapped traffic worked with those of us that worked with them. I had only slight issues and it was more or less down to difficulty of the track and these cars in combo than anything else. A few can sometimes be slightly problematic to get around, but for the most part I can always tell when lapped cars are doing their best to let me go on (all the while running their own race)

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

Quote :

So you're saying that Mon-Tremblant grip was spot on? Because that was a LOT lower grip than the other two, but interestingly the car felt almost easier to control there because it didn't sway as much and let you know the limit earlier. Looking forward to that!

Both tracks Mosport and Road Atlanta had been used here before so we asumed that part was all right - when the laptimes started shooting through the roof I got suspicious and dug into the terrain files. And indeed, the track creators or converters had given it no less than 10% more grip that it should have

When we noticed this we decided not to make more patches because everybody had already practiced and made setups, etc, but we will for sure check that in the future tracks.

The problem with grip being higher is not just that you go quicker, the real problem is that the tires and suspensions are calculated for the proper G forces that such a car withstood, so when you go much quicker through a turn or braking or accelerating you are in fact causing weird deformation in the tires and reactions that the damping in the suspension were not meant to soak etc, etc. This all results in a less forgiving, less precise and more skittish behaviour as well as worse feedback about what it is doing. 

You have already noticed the cars were better at St Jovite, I lowered the grip at Road Atlanta to correct values and tested offline and indeed the cars were way better to drive. Still quicker than real life, but that is down to the track being shorter and wider.

Interestingly, I had about zero feeling for what was happening with the car at St. Jovite and never could build the confidence to go to the limit, nor could I post any fast or constant laptimes.
I noticed the mentioned tire deformation though, that was a bit weird each time looking at the tire temps after T1, but it was probably not so bad as on my personal best first sector was 2/10 slower than the overall S1 record. I lost a bit more on the rest of the lap, though...

Another thing, could it be that yellows are sometimes dropped a bit late? I seem to recall seeing a car in the outside gravel when I hit the barrier in avoidance of the car in front of me, but certainly no yellow, though the cars in front of me seemed suspiciously slow. I'm still annoyed about that incident, cos it cost me very good points...

Quote :

I had about zero feeling for what was happening with the car at St. Jovite and never could build the confidence to go to the limit, nor could I post any fast or constant laptimes. 
I noticed the mentioned tire deformation though, that was a bit weird each time looking at the tire temps after T1, but it was probably not so bad as on my personal best first sector was 2/10 slower than the overall S1 record. I lost a bit more on the rest of the lap, though... 

It might be that the FF settings on your wheel require bigger G forces to give you a feel of the car. 

Quote :

Another thing, could it be that yellows are sometimes dropped a bit late?

rFactor has its own encoded criteria about when to trigger a yellow, car off track or at abnormal speed are some but only God knows what happens inside its binary brain ^^

A mon tour de répondre ici, puisque je suis aussi mis en cause.
De ma courte et modeste expérience avec vous, je veux juste apporter mon avis et ma version.
Ceux qui l'utilisent l'on fait remarquer plus haut, la T160 est plutôt difficile et la différence de performance avec les voitures de pointes semble énorme, même si certain arrivent à faire de bons temps avec...

Ceci dit, nul besoin,  Austin Ogonoski d'analyser ma course en détails et de compter les "self spin"
je n'ai moi même pas eu le temps de visionner...
Je n'étais pas arrêté par plaisir, je tentais juste de reprendre la piste en gênant le moins possible, ce que je
m' efforce toujours de faire (je suis bien conscient de mes faibles performances !!)
Par ailleurs, d'autres l'ont aussi signalé, je me suis fait pousser par quelques impatients alors que j'étais ralentis et bien dans ma ligne, une partie du retard ce trouve aussi ici.
Mais je ne cherche pas d'excuse, et je ne me plaint ni de la voiture, ni d'autre chose, les incidents de course ne sont jamais les bienvenus mais reflète aussi la réalité
La plupart d'entre vous sont extrêmement rapide et je suis malgré tout heureux de participer à ce championnat
même si Austin Ogonoski pense qu'on ne puisse pas prendre de plaisir à concourir pour finir à 10 tours

Si vous pensez qu'il faille faire une sélection par la performance plus sévère, faites, il y aura donc en gros 8/9 voitures exclues et il ne restera que des champions potentiels !!!

La majorité des commentaires que je lis ici sont sages et sensés...

Relax and enjoy

edit : juste pour préciser, à mon 52em tour j'ai donc fait un double tête à queue et je venais juste de me rétablir sur la piste (encore en 3eme) quand Austin est venu me frapper. Trop tard pour moi de relancer, trop tard pour lui de réagir...c'est la course !!

Edit n°2 " Tour 51 : Obtient une voiture plus rapide parce qu'il n'a pas bougé" ça veut dire quoi ??
que je n'ai pas bougé de ma ligne et je me suis fait pousser par une voiture rouge, alors oui encore "self spin" !!! alors que j'étais complètement à l’extérieur, il ne faut pas non plus dire n'importe quoi Austin

hso is a great community, the admins and creators have true passion for historic racing, and I really appreciate all they do to make this happen.  the races, for the most part, are very sporting and you can tell people are trying their best to be clean.  could things be better, sure, we can always strive to improve.

my two cents (take with a grain of salt)...
107% rule, not appropriate.  putting pressure to perform on speed and pace is the exact wrong thing to focus on.

2 spin rule, probably a bit too strict, but maybe more along the spirit of how we want the races to be.  at least from my point of view, its much more acceptable to have someone slower but driving sensibly (meaning both in control, and making smart decisions with traffic).

faster cars lapping others please, patience!  the slower car does NOT have to MOVE out of the way.  their job is to be predictable and FACILITATE the pass once you initiate.  expect to loose time.  both cars should expect to loose some time, but both should work together to loose as little time as possible.  zero sense to "battling" on both sides.  with that said, the car being lapped should be helpful.  sometimes an extra lift to let someone pass in an "easy" part of the track will be safer and loose less time then waiting till the car gets there and spend time in risky close proximity. sometimes trying to let someone past in a "bad" spot is not helpful at all and really dangerous.

everyone, practice during the week.  both so you learn how to drive your car, but also so you can experience and see how others are driving their cars.  difference in pace between drivers/cars at different points on the track, much better to have these types of discoveries before the race and not during.  (i had the luxury of some extra time and was able to test several different cars this week.  it was amazing just how differently some of the cars behaved.  it wasn't just a difference of grip or pace, it was the difference of how the track had to be driven that was the surprising part.  the non-wing cars really need all the track at the kink/crest on the back straight, it helped me during the race to predict position and closing rate.  anyone not sure what i mean, give the lola t160 a try.

so, that was all just my opinion, im not an admin, just a participant that wants it to be as great as possible.  now really take the next bit as just opinion...

being brutally honest, there are a few cars out there that are not driving to the same standards as the majority.  some that seem to be having control issues with their cars, and some that seem to be making poor decisions in proximity to others.  some incidents are more severe than others.  for major incidents hso already has a system to protest (via pm to admin).  it needs to be utilized, properly, for the good of all racers.  on the flip of that, for the respect of the series and everyone involved, each racer should be able to self evaluate and be honest about their own driving.  if control is the issue, ask for help, im sure many will try to assist.  if there is question about how to behave in certain situations ask here or pm an admin for clarification.  

sorry for sounding preachy, just want the racing to be as good as possible.

-----------------

so glad the weather co-operated and i had a window to be able to race.  had a lot of practice during the week so felt like i would be able to handle the car.  qualifying was less than stellar, never got all 3 sectors on the same lap, but felt like it was ready to race.  had some nice close racing early with a very fast cornering grant.  then some dana hot on my heels, really fast thru the esses and straight.  then a bit of chasing jundt and a blazing fast m8c of sterr.  right when i made a bit of a slide and thought i lost them i came up on the scene of an accident that took them both off.  from there i had a lonely drive focusing on keeping my car clean.  had a couple encounters of people being TOO nice.  if you are being lapped and the cars are not inline with each other, on a straight part of track, then lifting/braking would be a nice gesture.  if we are in the esses, directly nose to tail, braking is an unavoidable accident.  in the esses i was expecting to follow and hopefully pass on the short straight.  not sure if it is just being too nice, or conditioning because other cars have been over aggressive and diving for passes in the esses previously.

anyway, as usual with hso, pretty good race.  grats to finishers and yves for a nice win.  

dave

Dont know how much my opinions worth but anyway...

Since the start of this championship I have failed to finish in the first 2 races, both incidences involved a lapped car, both incidences were not down to the lapped cars deliberation or fault. Race incidences.. that was it. Yesterday and the last 2 races the back markers have been great. Simple as that...  If your in a hurry to lap someone then do so by using your head.

The only downside for me is every time I lapped certain people yesterday I noticed they tried their damned hardest to move out of the way by actually REMOVING THEMSELVES from the track.. I felt so guilty that they may feel the need to do this. I hope everyone else being lapped knows they have every right to hold there ground just as much as the lead lappers and I hope they take note...

For me, respect the backmarkers, and in turn they'll respect you.



Onto the point of repeat spinners. It was interesting reading Christians post. His cars hard to handle and not the easiest to drive. So it brings me back to a suggestion I was going to raise few weeks back.

If cars are hard to handle then why are they given to those with less experience? I know in the rules it states admins will allocate cars to give the best competition but is that for viewing competition or for actual fairness? Personally, excluding one off's, the top 3 in the championship at the moment are in cars way too fast for there skill level, that's my opinion. So with that in mind. I cant help but think to off had a grading system, similar to the 91's, would off been so much more beneficial for both the competition and for the less experienced drivers.

Not only that, we would then know exactly the cars we can expect to be given and allocated.

End of the day for me we shouldn't be punishing the less experienced drivers, but educating them and perhaps help and ease them. All together this is just my views and opinions. So I hope people don't mind me airing them.

We give the worse cars to newcomers whose racing level is unknown. This rule is based on 3 reasons:

1) Avoids (Has happened in the past) that a previously unknown alien appears, gets a quick car and destroys the field making the season a boring thing for everyone. The HSO spirit is about trying to level the field yes, but for that to happen we have to gauge first the level of the competitors in several races. 

2) Avoids that we allocate a good car to someone who might lack commitment and dissapear after some races, when we could have given it to one of our regulars who would be making better use of it. We try to always treat well our regular members, the more you race with us and the fairer you are on track, the more chances to get a better ride (Always within your racing level).

3) Gives the user the opportunity to prove himself as a safe/fair driver with restraint and self control, able to gauge the limitations of the car.  

We don't pretend it's a perfect system, but we do our best and learn (And rectify) on the way 

EDIT: Also, as happened with Gabriel Sterr, once the driver has proven himself we allow a switch to a better car, and look how well it worked for him.

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

We give the worse cars to newcomers whose racing level is unknown. This rule is based on 3 reasons:

1) Avoids (Has happened in the past) that a previously unknown alien appears, gets a quick car and destroys the field making the season a boring thing for everyone. The HSO spirit is about trying to level the field yes, but for that to happen we have to gauge first the level of the competitors in several races. 

2) Avoids that we allocate a good car to someone who might lack commitment and dissapear after some races, when we could have given it to one of our regulars who would be making better use of it. We try to always treat well our regular members, the more you race with us and the fairer you are on track, the more chances to get a better ride (Always within your racing level).

3) Gives the user the opportunity to prove himself as a safe/fair driver with restraint and self control, able to gauge the limitations of the car.  

We don't pretend it's a perfect system, but we do our best and learn (And rectify) on the way 

EDIT: Also, as happened with Gabriel Sterr, once the driver has proven himself we allow a switch to a better car, and look how well it worked for him.

I see! This makes perfect sense and clears that up.

Martin Lacina wrote:

I didnt expected so much in this race when i saw how much speed i lost on the straight against the front half of the field. Especialy when i dropped from 19 position almost to the back of the field due to not avoidable collision with the Steve's wreck. That's why a feel a lot of satisfaction with top ten result and with one point.
Sorry Philippe for avoidable hit from the back at the begining of the race!

No problem, yersterday i'am angry, 3 races 3 dnf. After contact I spun out going to the wall, can't avoid the impact with the rail.... After that, my car became slow like never seen before. A few laps dragging around the track. I went to the pits and lost, my car receive some repears cost me 6 laps. I returned, continued slow and deconcentrated, so I exploded the engine of purpose.

My first HSO race in quite a long time, Must say I had a blast

after many scary runs through the esses and not a few trips into the wall in testing, I managed to get the 917 into mostly controllable shape

My goal was to simply stay out of trouble and finish, I did finish ,but had a few moments along the way, lost it in the kink on my own and had a 2 more spins overreacting to cars in front and a self inflicted trip across the gravel in the esses trying to get out of the way of the leaders.

All good fun overall though, Thanks to Everyone and I hope to be back for some more when real life allows me to

Report is now here.

Another great Timo race report.
He was eager to read it,
Congratulations!

An example of true journalism, so lacking today.
Excellent work, Timo.

...riveting!

Awesome Timo, like reading old magazine race reports.

Great job Timo on the race report

Bravo, Timo, pour ce romanesque rapport de course !

signé : le spoutnik !