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 Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]

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+22
Andre Lagunzad
Martin Lacina
Michael Drechsler
Steve Parker
Richard Wilks
Matthias Weber
David Jundt
Michal Janak
Pascal Kalide
Mick Chapman
Bruno Chacon
Jason Whited
Richard Coxon
Pascal Mikula
Alberto Ibañez
Jonatan Acerclinth
Yves Plaçais
Filippo Marazzi
Raul Jereb
Juha Bos
Javier Pérez Mato
Jason White
26 posters
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AuthorMessage
Jason Whited
Pro Driver
Jason Whited


Number of posts : 581
Age : 39
Location : Virginia, USA
Registration date : 2017-03-08

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 15:02

If anyone has any advice on how to reduce the trailing throttle oversteer without creating a bunch of mid corner understeer in the Group C's, particularly the Rondeau, I'm all ears.

I struggled with this Rondeau at Nordschleife, and now here. (Found the Grid Plaza to be the least problematic).....if I'm just slightly off my marks I am being chucked through the corner, uncontrollably.

I've tried just about everything I know to do. I've tried adjusting myself to the car instead of the opposite. It's works somewhat, and alone on track, though it's a constant job to stay on top of it, I'm ok. But if I'm forced to change my inputs ever so slightly it's all over but the crying, most times.

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Raul Jereb
Racing Legend
Raul Jereb


Number of posts : 1490
Age : 50
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2013-05-28

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 15:29

Hi,

Id like to ad Timo to the #42 team, and book another 935 for us, lets say #60.
If there is going to be another team/driver wanting this car, well let it go.. so, for now, Sitting Ducks 935s #42 & #60.

Thank you
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Raul Jereb
Racing Legend
Raul Jereb


Number of posts : 1490
Age : 50
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2013-05-28

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 19:11

Im facing an issue with game!
When I enter the server, Im in, but no car! I instaled the updates, I saw there is some overdriving, so I tryed both ways (first, second), but same result...

any ideas?
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Matthias Weber
Pro Driver
Matthias Weber


Number of posts : 520
Age : 40
Location : Remscheid, Germany
Registration date : 2013-08-06

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 19:14

Spectate = on?
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http://www.wud-ev.de
Richard Wilks
Racing Legend
Richard Wilks


Number of posts : 2212
Age : 40
Location : Portugal
Registration date : 2015-01-07

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 19:24

Physics changes? Well the cars are even better now :hihi:

I changed suspensions, engines, brakes, and a few other things. Car performance should be equal .

Oh and me and Coxon on the Sauber please Jason Smile
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Raul Jereb
Racing Legend
Raul Jereb


Number of posts : 1490
Age : 50
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2013-05-28

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 20:05

Matthias Weber wrote:
Spectate = on?

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
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Matthias Weber
Pro Driver
Matthias Weber


Number of posts : 520
Age : 40
Location : Remscheid, Germany
Registration date : 2013-08-06

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 22:32

Raul Jereb wrote:
Matthias Weber wrote:
Spectate = on?

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

lol! lol! lol! :drink: :drink:

Cannot remember how often I made that mistake :D
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http://www.wud-ev.de
Jason White
Racing Legend
Jason White


Number of posts : 14725
Age : 47
Location : Ferndale, MI USA
Registration date : 2011-12-25

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 22:33

Raul Jereb wrote:
Matthias Weber wrote:
Spectate = on?

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

We've all been there
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https://www.instagram.com/misterjasonwhite/
Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 64
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 29 Aug 2017 - 23:42

Can i have the #9 Porsche please :top:
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Michal Janak
Racing Legend
Michal Janak


Number of posts : 1082
Age : 51
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2010-03-25

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 8:56

i cant find my car in game, i think i downloaded all updates


heh,i didnt read carefuly it is in 81 carset :doh:
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 9:12

Quote :
If anyone has any advice on how to reduce the trailing throttle oversteer without creating a bunch of mid corner understeer in the Group C's, particularly the Rondeau, I'm all ears.

Can you elaborate a bit more? What is the trailing throttle oversteer?
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Michal Janak
Racing Legend
Michal Janak


Number of posts : 1082
Age : 51
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2010-03-25

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 10:07

so 1st shakedown in new car done, the slides are nice controlled so 4wheel drifts possible

maybe slower on straights compared to P935 (my topspeed only 260)
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Jason Whited
Pro Driver
Jason Whited


Number of posts : 581
Age : 39
Location : Virginia, USA
Registration date : 2017-03-08

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 14:20

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Quote :
If anyone has any advice on how to reduce the trailing throttle oversteer without creating a bunch of mid corner understeer in the Group C's, particularly the Rondeau, I'm all ears.

Can you elaborate a bit more? What is the trailing throttle oversteer?

"Lift-off oversteer (also known as snap-oversteer, trailing-throttle oversteer, throttle off oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in automobiles that occurs while cornering when closing the throttle causes a deceleration, causing the vertical load on the tires to shift from the rear to the front, in a process called weight transfer. This decrease in vertical load on the rear tires causes a decrease in the lateral force they generate, so that their lateral acceleration (into the corner) is also decreased. This causes the vehicle to steer more tightly into the turn, hence oversteering. In other words, easing off the accelerator can cause the rear tires to lose traction, with the potential for the car to leave the road tail first."

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Michael Drechsler
Pro Driver
Michael Drechsler


Number of posts : 671
Age : 45
Location : Aachen, Germany
Registration date : 2016-03-11

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 17:38

Try raising the coast side of the differential.
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Martin Lacina
Experienced Driver
Martin Lacina


Number of posts : 475
Age : 42
Location : Czech Republic
Registration date : 2016-02-16

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 20:14

Lancia 49 please
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Jason Whited
Pro Driver
Jason Whited


Number of posts : 581
Age : 39
Location : Virginia, USA
Registration date : 2017-03-08

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 30 Aug 2017 - 23:20

Michael Drechsler wrote:
Try raising the coast side of the differential.

Tried that. While it does obviously help to a small extent, it can create understeer problems of it's own, so one can only go so far with that. Even with the coast setting high and/or maxed the problem persists.

Like I said, I've covered all the basics to [not much] avail.

At Nordschleife, I worked and worked with this thing. In the end I found that quick throttle stabs during corner entry, a few through mid corner, and a few on exit were my best option for stability. Now, not even that is working.
It's a constant job just staying on top of this issue. Feel like I'm working rather than driving...hehe
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 121
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 9:24

Quote :
"Lift-off oversteer (also known as snap-oversteer, trailing-throttle oversteer, throttle off oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in automobiles that occurs while cornering when closing the throttle causes a deceleration, causing the vertical load on the tires to shift from the rear to the front, in a process called weight transfer. This decrease in vertical load on the rear tires causes a decrease in the lateral force they generate, so that their lateral acceleration (into the corner) is also decreased. This causes the vehicle to steer more tightly into the turn, hence oversteering. In other words, easing off the accelerator can cause the rear tires to lose traction, with the potential for the car to leave the road tail first."

OK, I knew it as throttle off oversteer, thus the question Smile 

So basically you want a stable corner entry but no push mid-corner. First off, you must remember that Ricardo's physics are much better than most of what you know so far, and the cars are purposedly made so that, as in real life, you can't do exaggerated trail braking into the corner, braking the car against the tires. This is one of the reasons you get that entry oversteer: In a real life car you either brake too much and lock (understeer out of the corner) or not enough to lock and then the weight transfer loosens the rear -as you are experiencing. The usual rfactor tecnique of braking into the corner can't be applied like that in a real car, so you are basically hitting a realistic limitation. Cars are intended to brake in straight line, and only trail brake a bit when turning, not so much to brake even more as to settle into the corner overcoming the initial push.

Having said that, the usual remedy to such things is first of all to move brake bias to the front, second to increase front damping slow rebound (Locked in this case IIRC), third raising differential coast side and finally you can also stiffen the front antirollbar a bit or soften the rear. Now, when doing those things you must first set your priorities knowing that getting the perfect car is almost impossible. So if the entry oversteer is hampering you more than the mid corner understeer, what you have to do is compromise and first of all dial out the entry oversteer, then work to make the car better at mid corner as much as you can. Personally I would use differential coast side and brake bias first and have the car enter the corner as I want, because those both get cancelled once you are on throttle again, (No effect anymore) then work with the other chassis adjustments to get a better exit, antirollbars and tire camber mostly.  Less camber on the rear and more in the front will help the car having the tail not as planed and more able to turn around mid corner, fowlloing the front wheels, then you have to adjust with as much front antirollbar as you can use before getting into corner exit understeer.
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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 64
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 11:36

Unless your driving a group 5 porsche 935 where the coast and power diffs are locked at 100% lol! this setting gives same result massive oversteer under braking and acceleration.
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Raul Jereb
Racing Legend
Raul Jereb


Number of posts : 1490
Age : 50
Location : Rijeka, Croatia
Registration date : 2013-05-28

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 11:56

Steve Parker wrote:
Unless your driving a group 5 porsche 935 where the coast and power diffs are locked at 100% lol! this setting gives same result massive oversteer under braking and acceleration.

I think that solution is lowering your brake pressure and start to brake much earlyer, and much gentle, to avoid locking and to control car behaviour easyer upon braking..

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Pascal Mikula
Racing Legend
Pascal Mikula


Number of posts : 1189
Age : 23
Location : Classic Motorsport Hub
Registration date : 2016-01-04

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 13:18

Raul Jereb wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:
Unless your driving a group 5 porsche 935 where the coast and power diffs are locked at 100% lol! this setting gives same result massive oversteer under braking and acceleration.

I think that solution is lowering your brake pressure and start to brake much earlyer, and much gentle, to avoid  locking and to control car behaviour easyer upon braking..


All Porsche's have this locked differential, so Arpad and me have to fight that in the 936C too :D
Basically they're all the same...but different!
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http://classicmotorsporthub.boards.net
Jason Whited
Pro Driver
Jason Whited


Number of posts : 581
Age : 39
Location : Virginia, USA
Registration date : 2017-03-08

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 15:20

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Quote :
"Lift-off oversteer (also known as snap-oversteer, trailing-throttle oversteer, throttle off oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer) is a form of oversteer in automobiles that occurs while cornering when closing the throttle causes a deceleration, causing the vertical load on the tires to shift from the rear to the front, in a process called weight transfer. This decrease in vertical load on the rear tires causes a decrease in the lateral force they generate, so that their lateral acceleration (into the corner) is also decreased. This causes the vehicle to steer more tightly into the turn, hence oversteering. In other words, easing off the accelerator can cause the rear tires to lose traction, with the potential for the car to leave the road tail first."

OK, I knew it as throttle off oversteer, thus the question Smile 

So basically you want a stable corner entry but no push mid-corner. First off, you must remember that Ricardo's physics are much better than most of what you know so far, and the cars are purposedly made so that, as in real life, you can't do exaggerated trail braking into the corner, braking the car against the tires. This is one of the reasons you get that entry oversteer: In a real life car you either brake too much and lock (understeer out of the corner) or not enough to lock and then the weight transfer loosens the rear -as you are experiencing. The usual rfactor tecnique of braking into the corner can't be applied like that in a real car, so you are basically hitting a realistic limitation. Cars are intended to brake in straight line, and only trail brake a bit when turning, not so much to brake even more as to settle into the corner overcoming the initial push.

Having said that, the usual remedy to such things is first of all to move brake bias to the front, second to increase front damping slow rebound (Locked in this case IIRC), third raising differential coast side and finally you can also stiffen the front antirollbar a bit or soften the rear. Now, when doing those things you must first set your priorities knowing that getting the perfect car is almost impossible. So if the entry oversteer is hampering you more than the mid corner understeer, what you have to do is compromise and first of all dial out the entry oversteer, then work to make the car better at mid corner as much as you can. Personally I would use differential coast side and brake bias first and have the car enter the corner as I want, because those both get cancelled once you are on throttle again, (No effect anymore) then work with the other chassis adjustments to get a better exit, antirollbars and tire camber mostly.  Less camber on the rear and more in the front will help the car having the tail not as planed and more able to turn around mid corner, fowlloing the front wheels, then you have to adjust with as much front antirollbar as you can use before getting into corner exit understeer.


Apologies if I sounded like I was being an ass by just posting a definition in response to your question. Was being lazy, so just grabbed that rather than elaborate.

I'll give a few things you've mentioned here a shot. Mostly, I've covered these bases, but perhaps my frustration had me pushing more than I thought. Some time settled down in the car might provide better results. Although, I'm not sure this issue is just a case of me pushing the car too hard or too unrealistically.
When I train for endurance races I generally never push the car 100%. I drive it the same way I will drive it for hours, focusing on the tire wear, fuel consumption, brake temps and wear, etc.
If anything, I tend to brake super early and go with smooth over hustling through. Many times when I am chucked through a corner, it's not hard braking or late trail braking that is getting me, it's the simple act of breathing the throttle, sometimes even ever so slightly.

Anyways....I've got a few things in mind that might help now and will add your advice to the brain, see what comes of it.

(P.S. I'm not complaining about the cars or the physics of the cars...etc etc. We're all in the same boat and I have no problem seeking out something that works. I'm not questioning the mod, far from it. I LOVE this mod! ........just to get that out of the way since I'm sure the persistent posting is starting to appear that way)
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Steve Parker
Racing Legend
Steve Parker


Number of posts : 2000
Age : 64
Location : England uk
Registration date : 2008-12-22

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Aug 2017 - 15:48

Raul Jereb wrote:
Steve Parker wrote:
Unless your driving a group 5 porsche 935 where the coast and power diffs are locked at 100% lol! this setting gives same result massive oversteer under braking and acceleration.

I think that solution is lowering your brake pressure and start to brake much earlyer, and much gentle, to avoid  locking and to control car behaviour easyer upon braking..


it was not a problem for me,my setup is sorted :top:
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Andre Lagunzad
Club Driver
Andre Lagunzad


Number of posts : 71
Age : 49
Location : Metro Manila, Philippines
Registration date : 2008-12-11

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Sep 2017 - 1:23

I wish to run #22 BMW M1 please thanks
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http://blog-of-alaster.blogspot.com/
James Knowles
Pro Driver
James Knowles


Number of posts : 757
Age : 54
Location : USA
Registration date : 2012-04-16

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Sep 2017 - 17:37

FYI in start procedure:

When the leading cars are on the Sportscar starting grid (on the downhil to Eau Rouge), an admin will give the real start of the race by typing "GREEN FLAG" in chat.
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Jason White
Racing Legend
Jason White


Number of posts : 14725
Age : 47
Location : Ferndale, MI USA
Registration date : 2011-12-25

Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]   Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th] - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Sep 2017 - 18:19

James Knowles wrote:
FYI in start procedure:

When the leading cars are on the Sportscar starting grid (on the downhil to Eau Rouge), an admin will give the real start of the race by typing "GREEN FLAG" in chat.

Fixed. TY
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https://www.instagram.com/misterjasonwhite/
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Round 5 - 1000 Km del Mugello [Sep 10th]
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» Starting Grid for Round 5 (Mugello)
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» Round 2-3 - Trenton (Apr 10th)
» Round 9 - Knockhill [May 10th]
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