Round 4 - Int. DMV-Baden-Pokal - Hockenheimring [Oct 23rd]

Karel Marciniszyn wrote:

I would like to try to race with you, please #23 Nissan Primera eGT | Nissan Primera Racing | Keith O'dor if possible

You can, look after her

I am sorry, stupid situation but I have to cancel my participation. Sorry again.

Sorry, I just got home from work and feel I have barely enough energy to have something to eat tonight If anyone wants to borrow the Mondeo they're most welcome

Richard Wilks wrote:

If you dont crash into people you won't end up upside down

Almost lost the car because of laughing in Race 2 ...

Great man, great physics!

BIG BIGG Sorry to Dave Miller, I'm slowing down too late. I was waiting for you, but then after a while you had DNF. I'm very sorry for this

sorry...messed up.

Nightmare races like a say...

Race 1,almost crash someone in turn 2 when i miss my braking,again !
Then i just roll up on the kerb,too much damage and i ve become the only DNF

Race 2,5 lap correct behind Bruno and Jason but after,just struggling,too much deg and temp on tyres,my set up work pretty well in quali but not in race,lack of everything

Matthias Weber wrote:

Richard Wilks wrote:

If you dont crash into people you won't end up upside down

Almost lost the car because of laughing in Race 2 ...

Great man, great physics!

if anything, i proved my own point. if you and your friend Titz dont crash into everything that moves, you won't roll over all the time. Besides, you are so smart that you don't realize that the way cars behave in collisions have very little to do with my physics. I actually think its nice that the guy doing the hitting comes out worse.

I really dont get your motivations for having a go at me, first in that rf2 thread, and now here. If you don't like he mod just don't play it. If we got some mod out of the shelf and just raced it here, and it sucked, you would also criticize it?

And on a personal note, its amazing the disrespect that is raised to the people that put all the work, and pay most of the bills here. The physics are not even only mine, Alberto did the suspensions, and all the other admins helped out in this mod. Its a mod that has suffered continuous improvement since it was first converted by us to rfactor1, and has proven to provide close nice racing, and very realistic laptimes and performances. I even took note of all the feedback when we ran the BTCC, and was able to improve the braking, and me and Coxon researched a lot to get the right horsepowers.

Even for next year in ISO, ATCC will again have more improvements, and we worked on new cars. But no, you think you can just come and mock our work because you dont like that sometimes cars roll over if they hit each other....

Richard, don't get me too wrong. I really respect the work you all do and did until now - it's free for all, you don't get money for that. And the Mod itself ain't bad, you can have a lot of fun.

I only have two points:
1. Please tell me, when did I crash into anybody the last time???? I drive very respectful on track, always leave space for others right next to me and my last collision I remember was with Oyvind at Brands Hatch, which hat nothing to do with aggressiveness, just misjudged the breaking point (like you did yesterday, it happens to everyone some time)
And I don't see any guys complaining about my driving style (I'm not Jan Titz, btw)

2. I just always said, that the cars react really strange, when the got lift up some inches like when you hit kerbs the wrong way (that's the reason I always flip over) or if you slightly touch other cars. They lean to the side, as if they have a very high point of gravity (don't know how it's called in english, sorry), almost like we're driving an Isuzu Fargo.

The problem was present on Rf1, so I don't think it's because of AMS Tire Physics.

And this Mod, is the only Mod where it happens, so this Mod seems to trigger some problems of the gmotor engine. But I don't know how to fix it either.

I say it again, I really like you guys and what you do, if it wasn't like that, I would not drive here.

It's just my stubborn way of asking for a fix for the next Mod version. The same way I complained about the brakes, which you also said "we won't make them indestructible" when half of the field DNFed because of brake failures.

And you just have to admit, that it's just not realistic, how your car went crazy after you hit Jonatan in the back.

We're always looking to improve the mod and feedback is always welcome as everyone knows. We're continuously learning new techniques and ways to coax results out of the GMotor engine.

Ok Mattias, indeed you are a fair driver, don't get me wrong also, i am sorry if i bunched you up in that comment with Jan, because he did hit a lot of people in the last event.


As for the cars tipping over, from extensive footage of the era, it seems in AMS when it comes to kerbs, they get raised the right amount. But indeed the ISI engine behaves weirdly in some situations, combined with some cars. It's really not the center of gravity, because these cars actually have really low ones, almost formula like even in my physics. It might have to do with the feeler boxes of contact, but that requires extensive online testing, and we can only do so much.

I am always open to feedback, the brakes in the VLM mod are a good example, i didnt make them indestrutable, but i did change them so people can more easily finish races even then. The same with the flatspots in this mod, they were too seasy to happen before, and i made some testing on my own without help to improve that.

I was even criticized internally for issuing too many patches in past seasons.

But i hope you keep racing with us actually, like i said, in ISO touring car wednesdays will continue, and it will again come with more improvements, and i will take a lot at the collision box, to see if something can be done.

I think that a part of the problem of why the ISI engine reacts like this is in these cars is because you have a combo of

1) Higher CoG because of them being touring cars,
2) Very stiff suspension, unlike for example the group A touring cars
3) High wheels (17-18 inches rims)
4) No downforce

This all creates a lever arm that the ISI engine doesn't seem able to interpretate correctly past a certain point when the trigger is a hit against something (Kerb, wall), i.-e. when the movement comes as a response of counteracting forces. It is possible that the ISI engine gets confused or overwhelmed when calculating the reaction of the physics to hitting something. The cars work perfectly well when you don't take kerbs, it's not as if they are going on two wheels just by turning around a corner. They need to get upset by hitting a kerb or another car.

I initially thought it could have to do with us simulating complex suspensions the ISI engine was riginally not created for, but the cars with normal double arms also react like that (Honda, Audi, etc), so it's a combo of many things.

In the TCL mods the car did also flip over when hitting kerbs, it just wasn't so frequent because they were not as extreme. But I sure can remember many instances where I ended on my M3 roof

I finally had a clean feature race, but maybe not the most competitive one. Sure, I'd had a bit of luck to finish 8th in the sprint, but then I was to be among the heavy weights in the feature. Or, lightweights rather, since my 4x4 Mondeo is the fattest car on the grid. You get what I mean. I was always bound to slip backwards in the feature.

Yet, I was again battling for 8th in the closing stages, since the Ford does not wear it's tires that much. Juha's Audi did, and he slipped backwards in the last 10 laps or so.

I showed my hand a couple of laps too early, in the final corner of the lap. I could use way more momentum through entry and middle, and Juha then figured out how to defend. We where side-by-side there a couple of laps before the end, and then on the final lap I got by, but he had a better exit and edged me with a car's length. Good stuff though!

This series is just fantastic. I love super touring.

It was really fun Jacob. I knew my car was useless through the final turn so all I could do was stick to the line and try not to run wide. On the last lap I actually made a mistake, but the Audi had enough power to get through the gap you left on the inside.

Richard Wilks wrote:

I am always open to feedback, the brakes in the VLM mod are a good example, i didnt make them indestrutable, but i did change them so people can more easily finish races even then. The same with the flatspots in this mod, they were too seasy to happen before, and i made some testing on my own without help to improve that.

These all have been good changes

So back to topic:
Really uneventful races for me, messed up my braking point in R1 in turn 2, lost many positions

R2 went well. Almost got Steve at the end, but no chance of overtaking on the outside because of that rubber marbles there.
Fair racing in both races. No tire problems at all, thanks to my 4x4
Lapping was good yesterday.

I'm trying to drive that season to the end, but will be difficult because of work.

Q Didnt have the pace in the car for pole .

Race 1-2  Two good starts laid the foundation for this double victory .

I know my car isnt the fastest out there so it was up to me to be as consistent as possible  . I feelt the pressure all the way to finish in both races  . First Juha then Jonatan in race 1.

Race2 it was Steve who  keept the pressure on me, if it hadnt been for me getting thru traffic abit faster than Steve who knows .

Its getting close in the championship

Great racing,

Thank you to Jonatan for the help. Really kind of you.

Been finding myself doing some recovery drives as of late (driving standards not the best with self inflicted mistakes that I need to iron out) but dam ive been having some fun just driving.

Great mods!!

Thanks to those who put the time and effort into delivering such fun

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

I think that a part of the problem of why the ISI engine reacts like this is in these cars is because you have a combo of

FWIW Can't remember where I saw this but some time back I think it was said (by Gjon Camaj) that one of the issues with car/wheel/tyre simulation is transition from contact to non-contact (with the road/surface). Kerbs and bumping cars certainly fit that description.

Whilst it was a big issue in rFactor AMS seem to have improved it hugely, and this Touring Car mod doesn't especially seem inclined to show it either (IMO). Hitting a sausage kerb at 100mph as at T1 in Hock surely is quite a lift to one side of any car and I managed my longest ever 2 wheel episode in practice. It's quite fun.

-----

Very last lap of Q1 gave me my best lap of the week and my best qually ever - 2nd. As usual, a poor start dropped me to 5 or 6 by T1. And then running 3rd the car (yet again!) slipped into neutral in the stadium complex and led me to drop places to Juha and Steve P. Finished 5th.

Race2 whilst flashing lights to thank a back marker (Bruno?) for letting me through I accidentally hit "Pit Limiter" at the same place in the stadium, allowing Grant and Jonatan through. (They'd have passed me anyway). I had registered 2 Cuts with about 10 laps to go and with the tyres shot I was having to take it really cautious. Finished 6th. Woohoo! Somehow I seem to be 4th in Champs - it can't last?

Good clean racing I thought. Thanks everyone!

Michael Griffiths wrote:

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

I think that a part of the problem of why the ISI engine reacts like this is in these cars is because you have a combo of

FWIW Can't remember where I saw this but some time back I think it was said (by Gjon Camaj) that one of the issues with car/wheel/tyre simulation is transition from contact to non-contact (with the road/surface).  Kerbs and bumping cars certainly fit that description.  

Whilst it was a big issue in rFactor AMS seem to have improved it hugely, and this Touring Car mod doesn't especially seem inclined to show it either (IMO).   Hitting a sausage kerb at 100mph as at T1 in Hock surely is quite a lift to one side of any car and I managed my longest ever 2 wheel episode in practice.  It's quite fun.  

-----

Very last lap of Q1 gave me my best lap of the week and my best qually ever - 2nd.   As usual, a poor start dropped me to 5 or 6 by T1.   And then running 3rd the car (yet again!) slipped into neutral in the stadium complex and led me to drop places to Juha and Steve P.  Finished 5th.  

Race2 whilst flashing lights to thank a back marker (Bruno?) for letting me through I accidentally hit "Pit Limiter" at the same place in the stadium, allowing Grant and Jonatan through. (They'd have passed me anyway).  I had registered 2 Cuts with about 10 laps to go and with the tyres shot I was having to take it really cautious.  Finished 6th.  Woohoo!  Somehow I seem to be 4th in Champs - it can't last?

Good clean racing I thought. Thanks everyone!

no.

mick wrote:

no.

ah, i see.