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 Which steering wheel do you use?

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Cezariusz Czlapinski
Lukáš Vydra
Jonatan Acerclinth
Ramon Llupart
Yves Plaçais
Richard Wilks
Pascal Mikula
Michael Drechsler
David Jaques
Peter Blom
Jason White
T J Johansen
David Jundt
Steve Parker
Raul Jereb
Grant Riddall
Jacob Fredriksson
Austin Johnson
Timo Vermeersch
Alberto Ibañez
Petr Hlavac
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 119
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 7 Feb 2019 - 17:37

Quote :
in the couple cars i have been luck enough to drive, the only time any were hard to turn was at 2mph in the pits. even the cars with manual steering racks, once you were rolling and up to speed, there was very very very little force needed to turn the wheel. there are two main reasons why real drivers get "tired" while driving, the immense concentration/focus which gets the heart rate up, and the physical effort of holding your body/arms in position thru the g-forces.

Because this has been mentioned already several times, I will weigh in to drop what I know about that from the suspension/physics point of view. 

The forces required to turn the tires depend basically on the self alignment of said tire. A tire is basically a big chunk of inflated rubber with some elasticity and you (And the car weight) have to twist it before it produces the side force necessary to make the car change direction against its inertia to continue in straight line. Now, the suspension geometry plays here a role, as depending on it you will get more or less self alignment force on the tire. A strong self aligning tire makes a very stable car at high speeds, at the price of more force to turn it around. The quicker you go, and the harder you turn (Specially in cars with downforce) the more force it is required to twist the tire and force it to change the direction of travel of the big chunk of metal and plastic it is supporting. The main parameter here is caster, (Higher caster = more effort to turn the wheel at speed) but kingpin inclination and scrub radius also play a role. In the older cars like the pre WW2 ones you had skinny tires that required huge effort to turn, much more at speed than when sitting in the pits. The reason was caster, as those things were so unstable at high speeds (No clue about aero back then except for streamlining) that you had to throw loads of caster on them to produce strong self-alignment and keep them somehow in check shooting straight like an arrow. This progressively reduced after the war as tire and chassis technology improved, but started raising again to big forces as fat tires and aero downforce were introduced, because it both added weight to the car (Albeit not physical) and allowed harder cornering. So even with smaller caster, you got huge forces trying to align the tire when you twist it.

So yes, the tales of certain cars giving you a good workout through the steering are funded and real, though you can't extrapolate that to any race car of any time.

Quote :
his leads me into the next thing, brakes that are set crazy stiff. people always quote real world "pedal pressure", "f1 drivers have to press with 150kg of force". so they try to set their home sim with a super stiff brake to be "like real life". the important thing to note, g-forces! 12kg of leg at 5g of decel is 60kg with zero effort. 

My thoughts also.

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Petr Hlavac
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Petr Hlavac


Number of posts : 811
Age : 39
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2015-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 10:28

Austin Johnson wrote:
 
So against the g25 how well do you think it handled? I'm not the super force feedback type of guy. I've pushed my own vehicle's to the brink of destruction plenty of times but never have felt the same type of feeling threw the wheel. I'm the same as Alberto. I really don't understand why folks have such high forces when my real car at full tilt feels hard but not the same as if you turn up the Ffb

I'm interested in the resolution and feeling of the car gripping the road is more of what I'm after, any thoughts on that feel?

First, let me say that I was a big supporter of Logitech for all those 11 years. The wheel was rock solid and it was simply good enough for me. Then I tried DD wheels on a few occasions and I relaized that my good old G25 is rather a toy. But obviously, DD is insanely expensive, so I thought that G25 (or Logitech in general) is as good as it gets for an average guy like me. I knew many people said that Thrustmaster is way better due its belt drive, but I didn't pay much attention. Well, obviously, I was wrong.

There are two things about FFB.
: Strength, which is not a priority for many (if not most) simracers. I like it hard, because I drive mostly vintage open wheelers with no power steering. But I know that most people turn it down.
: And then there's the way the FFB is delivered to the wheel. And that's where belt drive is light years ahead of the gear driven system by Logitech. I didn't believe it, but now I know it's true. The smoothness, speed and detail you get from Thrustmaster is amazing. Where G25 just rattled and any kind of feedback rather died when the car started to spin, Thrustmaster will let you know what exactly is happening, you can feel the weight transfer and you can react much faster. And I don't say it only because I spent shitloads of money on it (50% of my monthly income, to put it into perspective :hihi:  ), but because it really does make a difference.

If it's true what they say - that TS-PC is basically a T300 boosted by 50% in a better (metal) case, then T300 must be a damn good wheel, especially if you don't need that much power.

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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 119
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 10:42

One thing to note about the belt is that it is per se elastic, which has been critizised by the DD purists as it introduces some lag or lack of precission in the path of the forces to the steering wheel you hold in your hands.

Personally I believe it is actually a kind of realism feel addition, as the elasticity of the rubber mimicks well that of the tires and dampens the inevitably "rough" reactions of the metal mechanical components. In a real car you have a mix: metal in the steering shaft, link and column, but rubber in the tires, so you actually act with a metal device on a rubber surface against the ground (tarmac) i.e. your feel of the ground is delivered through a rubber surface in the chain. So the belt is probably giving you the proper feel, though of course (Here the critic might be accurate) you can't fine tune it with the FF to allow the feel of different tires (Wide, thin, radial, bias ply) to be represented and you are locked with a single feel. Still, the contribution of it to the whole experience is subtle enough, so I guess there is no need to really dwell that deep.

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Petr Hlavac
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Petr Hlavac


Number of posts : 811
Age : 39
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2015-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 12:55

Alberto, a short note regarding strength of FFB and stiffness of brake pedal. I like a strong FFB. First, if you drive a go-kart in real life, it's exhausting and I like it. Second, any real car without power steering requires quite a lot of power to steer it. I drove a 2001 Fiat Punto for two months. The funny thing was that power steering and ABS simply didn't turn on after each 2nd-3rd start. It was a lot of fun. And even though it's a lightweight vehicle on skinny tyres, the steering was very heavy (actually, similar to my TS-PC running at 100% strength). And I'm sure that single seaters require awful lot of power to make it turn (I read that current Indycar needs up to 30Nm of torque, depending on the amount of downforce). I'm not shoving it down your throat, I'm just explaining my point of view Wink

And pedals - I fully agree that having a sim brake set to 80-120kg of pressure is a nonsense, as we have no G-forces in simracing. However, I find it important to have a progressive pedal travel. It's funny I'm saying this, because I drove with a "dead" brake pedal for 10,5 years and I didn't mind Very Happy  But as I modified my brake pedal heavily, it changed the feel and precision of braking significantly. So some strength to brake definitely does make sense.

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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
Age : 119
Location : International Simracing Organisation
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 13:39

Quote :
I'm not shoving it down your throat, I'm just explaining my point of view

Of course not, I actually agreed with that in one of my previous posts where I explained where those forces come from. I have also kart experience so I know quite well that the steering can be hard, I just highlighted that how hard it is depends mostly on suspension geometry. You could make even the hardest car to drive as soft as to steer it with a finger using suspension geometry, but then it would be absolutely uncontrollable.

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Petr Hlavac
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Petr Hlavac


Number of posts : 811
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Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2015-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 14:38

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

You could make even the hardest car to drive as soft as to steer it with a finger using suspension geometry, but then it would be absolutely uncontrollable.

True. That's exactly what they did for Danican't in her (hopefully) last Indy 500. She realized she was too weak to handle the car, so they added a lot of caster to make it easier on her hands. It was no surprise she crashed out eventually, as all onboards prior to the crash showed how bad the car was. She jerked the wheel all the time, it was obviously very difficult to drive.

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Pascal Mikula
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Pascal Mikula


Number of posts : 1165
Age : 22
Location : Classic Motorsport Hub
Registration date : 2016-01-04

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 14:45

Petr Hlavac wrote:
I was wondering - which wheels do you use?

I started off with a Microsoft Sidewinder or whatever it was called back in 2003. I was three years old back then, so you can imagine how well I did  lol! But the memories with Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 3 still startle me to this day, hence why I still play that game a lot.

After that, I didn't have anything for about eight years. Always wanted a steering wheel because I always loved racing games/sims.
Then my father got me a 40€ cheap-ass Speedlink or something wheel with 180° steering range and "pedals", meaning they were more like on-off switches than actual pedals. The great thing about that was that it had a quick-release mechanism which really felt like I was in a way driving a race car. But the wheel itself and the mechanisms were just shit.
After that thing broke for good, I got myself a Logitech G27 which I still have until today. The only modded part is the shifter, where I replaced the stock knob with a black 5-speed + R knob with red writing engraved in it. Also, I accidentally ripped the leather boot off, which is the reason I have problems with shifting sometimes  :aie:

But it works pefectly. I wouldn't give it up for anything, except a G29 and a way to make my G27 shifter compatible with it.

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Richard Wilks
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Richard Wilks


Number of posts : 2212
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 14:49

Ok i see there are a few misconceptions here that i feel i need to address.

I drove quite a lot of go karts in real life, even competitively. The steering is hard only when the kart is stopped, Once at speed, it becomes progressively lighter. The faster you go, the lighter it gets, specially around corners, because all you need to do is minute steering corrections to the trajectory when you are going around a fast sweeper.

You also have NO FEEDBACK whatsoever of what the kart is doing through the steering. its all about what your body and senses are feeling. If you wait untl you feel anything through steering about how much grip you have, how much you need to correct a slide, etc, you would always be too late.

A myth i see propagated by sim racing youtubers that never drove a car in anger in any shape or time, is that the steering "self corrects" when the rear slide. This is simply not true. The steering doesn't do anything, except keeping the wheels pointed to where they are, and if you hold the wheel with any force, specially on a road car, you can easily keep them straight, negating this "self aligning" magic save.
The proof is that you can spin a car so quick that the steering won't react, and in fact this is what happens the most, and you can see that yourself if you see people spinning cars in the rain on youtube videos. They hold the wheel , and the car just spins around, with the wheels still pointing straight.

Look at the Chris Harris video, or any drifting instruction video. At any point they say that the wheel will correct itself once you start sliding. They all say in fact that you need to correct the slide as soon as you can, and using as little steering as you can, because most of the slide is controled with the throttle actually, and the steering is only "guiding" where the car is going. Never at any point they let the wheel go completely  and the car self aligns itself.

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Petr Hlavac
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Petr Hlavac


Number of posts : 811
Age : 39
Location : Brno, Czech Republic
Registration date : 2015-01-11

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 15:26

Pascal Mikula wrote:

I started off with a Microsoft Sidewinder or whatever it was called back in 2003.

Oooh, that was my first wheel, too. Great memories Wink Pedals had pretty much no resistance and the rubber on rim got torn to pieces, but I still have it somewhere and it highly probably still works.

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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez


Number of posts : 16788
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Location : International Simracing Organisation
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 15:53

Quote :
The steering is hard only when the kart is stopped, Once at speed, it becomes progressively lighter. The faster you go, the lighter it gets, specially around corners, because all you need to do is minute steering corrections to the trajectory when you are going around a fast sweeper.

I am not sure a KART is too telling of how a normal car feels at racing speeds, first of all because of weight -the difference is huge-, and second because with locked rear axle and such tight corners you are constantly sliding the rear to get around them, meaning it's not so much forcing the front tires into a slip angle and horsing the car into the corner as breaking the rear grip and having it slide around. The way to go fast is drifting it through the corner with the rear rounding it and thus in the point between spinning and going too slow, which as you rightfully say is a balance that requires minute corrections.

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Yves Plaçais
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Yves Plaçais


Number of posts : 1981
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 8 Feb 2019 - 16:10

G27 for many years, but on AMS, like Jan (Kowalski), after a few laps, I feel like I have a machine gun in my hands and no longer a steering wheel, it vibrates so much!

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Austin Johnson
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Austin Johnson


Number of posts : 814
Age : 32
Location : Northern California
Registration date : 2013-01-14

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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 9 Feb 2019 - 19:55

David Jaques wrote:
still using the trusty g25, replaced the pedals with a new g27 set.  

i've always gone for a softer force feedback feel.  I get the intention; we aren't sitting in a real car experiencing the g-forces, so the ffb is there to give us extra info to what is going on.  but when i hear of people turning the forces up really high to "get a workout", and the sheer amount of force some of the new wheels are capable of, i just have to ask why?  granted i don't have a full array of real world driving experience, but in the couple cars i have been luck enough to drive, the only time any were hard to turn was at 2mph in the pits.  even the cars with manual steering racks, once you were rolling and up to speed, there was very very very little force needed to turn the wheel.  there are two main reasons why real drivers get "tired" while driving, the immense concentration/focus which gets the heart rate up, and the physical effort of holding your body/arms in position thru the g-forces.  this leads me into the next thing, brakes that are set crazy stiff.  people always quote real world "pedal pressure", "f1 drivers have to press with 150kg of force".  so they try to set their home sim with a super stiff brake to be "like real life".  the important thing to note, g-forces!  12kg of leg at 5g of decel is 60kg with zero effort.  there are specific occasions i can recall of deep braking into turn 1 at the glen where i had to actually lift up on my leg to prevent lockup while still trail braking into the turn.  

in the end its going to come down to some personal preference, and what you want out of your driving experience.  a more forceful wheel or stiffer brake aren't necessarily more "realistic" (even though some of the more expensive stuff will tell you so).  im happy with what i have, but if i was going to invest my money would be going toward something that was smoother and capable of more subtle outputs, not something with more force.

Exactly my thoughts, You couldn't have said it any better.  So for us running lower FFB, would it be a waste of money for a DD wheel when we really don't use all the force's or is the precision and accuracy that much better?

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Petr Hlavac
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Petr Hlavac


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 10 Feb 2019 - 12:37

Austin Johnson wrote:

Exactly my thoughts, You couldn't have said it any better.  So for us running lower FFB, would it be a waste of money for a DD wheel when we really don't use all the force's or is the precision and accuracy that much better?

They say that it's a similar improvement between gear - belt driven wheels, as from belt - direct drive. I can't really confirm that, as the last time I drove a DD wheel was nearly one year ago. In therory, DD will always be much better even if you turn the power down to 10%, so it shouldn't be a waste of money, no matter how little strength you like. All I can say is that going from gear to belt is not a step forward, it's a huge leap. A massive difference. Now it's clear to me why Thrustmaster T300 is one of the most popular wheels on the market.

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Ramon Llupart
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Ramon Llupart


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 12 Feb 2019 - 10:08

Old G27 here also for many years. Lately it's starting to make some strange noise so... I don't know how many time it's going to last. lol!
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Jonatan Acerclinth
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Jonatan Acerclinth


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 12 Feb 2019 - 10:35

I too am on a G27 (baught when I was a student back in 07 or 08) so it's been with me for a long time now and still going pretty strong, a couple of niggly bits (constant cleaning of the brake and a loss of Reverse gear on the H-shifter) but it's a very good wheel still for me.

But I am considering going to a new wheel at some point this year so I'll keep in mind what has been said in here about different makes and combo's :drink:

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Lukáš Vydra
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Lukáš Vydra


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 12 Feb 2019 - 10:49

Racing since 2016 with Logitech Driving Force GT and I am absolutely satisfied :conduit: Previous wheel was also Logitech, Formula Force EX to be specific (2009-2015).

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Cezariusz Czlapinski
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Cezariusz Czlapinski


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 12 Feb 2019 - 22:33

Logitech Formula :D

No FFB, pot based 200° rotation angle, pure fun !  :top:

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Mario Andreoni
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 11 May 2019 - 12:11

I began with a G27 and still use it ... do not know the others yet but this thread is very interesting and useful ... I will check for the wheels and pedals you suggest
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John Fuqua
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 11 May 2019 - 12:47

G27 here as well, so far found nothing that beats it, had the Fanatec Clubsport V2, far too heavy for the desk, thing weighed a ton sold it, CSL Elite F1 Set, nice wheel, liked it very much but weird angle, bad clamp, very questionable reliability, returned it, and lastly a TM TS-PC Racer, liked it ok, clamp is cheap, did not like the TM pedals, tried the Leo Bodnar cable with the G27 pedals with it, bad idea pedals didn't work well then, so back to stock G27 & pedals working fine, however if I ran across a TS-PC Racer at a decent price I would get it again.
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David Jundt
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David Jundt


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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 11 May 2019 - 17:12

Sounds more like wrong desk.

I don't think there's a lot of people that would call a Fanatec inferior to a Logitech wheel :D

But if you meant "nothing that beats it" in terms of reliability, I agree. Very durable.

But the G27 goes on my nerve in modern sims as the rattling over kerbs just makes me lose all feeling or feedback from the track, can't judge aswell if the car is going to spin or not since the rattling kinda covers it.

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John Fuqua
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 11 May 2019 - 21:24

David Jundt wrote:
Sounds more like wrong desk.

I don't think there's a lot of people that would call a Fanatec inferior to a Logitech wheel :D

But if you meant "nothing that beats it" in terms of reliability, I agree. Very durable.

But the G27 goes on my nerve in modern sims as the rattling over kerbs just makes me lose all feeling or feedback from the track, can't judge aswell if the car is going to spin or not since the rattling kinda covers it.
Reliablity, G27 even with it's rattles and middle dead zone has lasted through a lot, Fanatec is the better wheel for sure, just maybe not reliabilty wise from what I read, did like the TS-PC, always with an eye open for a good deal on one
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Gabriel Legnini
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PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 13 May 2019 - 21:22

IONICUBE OSW DD. By now is an old-gen system, but still performs admirably. The rim is a converted Fanatec Universal Hub with a Flat 1 rim.

For pedals I use a CST-GT clone.
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Gabriel Sterr
Club Driver
Gabriel Sterr


Number of posts : 86
Age : 31
Location : Deggendorf, Germany
Registration date : 2018-01-03

Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 22 May 2019 - 22:08

I am using a Thrustmaster T500 with a simple wheelstand and load cell mod (engineered and made by the user swaytec as found in the German Project Cars forum). I'm very happy with it. The FFB is quite strong and smooth, albeit maybe not overly detailed. The belt drive is also more quiet than a gear driven wheel. At least since I replaced the noisy fan that originally came in the Thrustmaster with a quieter one Wink

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Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which steering wheel do you use?    Which steering wheel do you use?  - Page 2 Icon_minitime

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