500 mood stuff: The Andrettis

So, let's start getting into an indy mood


Jason here called Andretti's "whiners" . I see that it's a pretty "popular" apreciation of that family. Now i surelly remember in 1994 Mario and Michael whinning about Mansell a lot, just because he was stealing their spotlight (and the newman/haas place that Michael thought it was his by birthright almost).


There's also the "curse", and the disaster that was the 1993 season for Michael in F1.

What you think of all this?


Regarding 1994, i think Mario was over the hill for those cars anyways, and instead of trying to inflate his ego even more with the "arrivederci tour" should have decided to quit some 5 years earlier and move to sportscars maybe if he still wanted to compete at the top. Mansell ruined his plans of having his son next to him in his final year, and the sole atention of the team on him (or them), so he ran his mouth on him.


Michael i understand even less. I always liked his hard charging style, and think that nobody helped him in 1993 and some criticism was unfair.
But then again he didn't help himself either, staying in the US, dragging his atention whore of a wife around, and then badmouthing Mansell just for no reason at all?!

Regarding the Andretti curse, I've always believed it's BS.  He did win the race in 1969.  So many people have raced there multiple times and never won (thinking of Dick Simon, Lloyd Ruby, George Snider, etc) I never recall hearing about a Snider curse or a Ruby curse.  IMO, it's always been the media needing a dramatic story (as if men cheating death wasn't interesting enough).

Regarding Mansell, he was renowned for his showbiz drama, especially after the 1993 Michigan 500. I think Mario and him didn't really mesh personality-wise, and yes, I think Mario resented him being brought in.

Lots of topics regarding the Andrettis, let's have a go at it

The Andretti curse: Nonesense. Gurney and Parnelli also failed big time in the 500 for many reasons and weren't the only top drivers to suffer that. The 500 is a special race, everything has to be coming together perfectly and/or you need to have that special feel for it. That is the reason why you have a bunch of guys who won it several times (They have the feel) and loads of one-time winners (They got the luck of everything coming together).

Michael in F1: *Takes a deep breath* I have watched loads of Indycar racing from the 80s and 90s and Michael was well above all other drivers in many aspects. He for sure didn't lack raw speed and balls and he literally destroyed the whole field many times but, much like his father, was quite hard on the cars and that cost him dearly. From his generation, several attempted F1 with a test, like Unser Jr and Tracy, but they would have been midfielders. Michael was championship material. Not of the calibre of Senna, but worthy of being champion for sure.

His F1 attempt was flawed for many reasons, first one sharing team with Senna at his peak wasn't exactly easy for a newcomer. He also lived in the US and flew to the GPs (Which annoyed Ron Dennis big time, as he wants 110% commitment from people) and his mind never really was at it. Don't forget that Mario always felt italian at heart and saw first F1 as a child and only when a teenager started raicng in the US, but always with europe in mind. Michael was born and raised in the US as an american. I think Michael had more than enough quality to race in F1 and win at least a championship, it just didn't come together and unlike when his dad raced, there are no 2nd chances in modern F1. But F1 was more or less an extension of what always happened to that guy, he only won one CART championship despite being the best drivera round. Bad luck, bad decissions, and something hard to say that simply was missing.

Mansell and Mario: Oh dear. We all know good old Nigel, don't we? Much like Fernando Alonso, it's a guy who is hard to get along with, temperamental and with an inclination to blame everyone around when things are not working well. Like a teenager girlfriend, he will make sure you are in hell if he isn't happy. Mario was long past his peak (And even at his peak its questionable if he was faster than Nigel) but still driving reasonably well, and Nigel made hell of his final year.

But you see Alberto, thats where i think the talk is more talk than fact. Both Alonso and Nigel praise the team whenever they get the chance, and the people who actually WORKED with them, have nothing but good things to say! In both cases, what i hear is JOURNALISTS creating these monsters out of them. Sure Nigel and Alonso can have a bad temper, but hell, name one successfull driver that isn't a sore loser! Of the top of my head, i remember Fittipaldi, and even him got hell because of his famous orange juice!

Senna wasn't the nicest guy around, and Prost is not called "political" for no reason!

In fact regarding 1994, Mansell had a rotten luck, and his team let him down a couple of times, yet not a single bad word from him after for example they almost killed him at Michigan with a stuck throttle!

And i am by no means a big Mansell fan, but the guy at least looked and sounded professional, wich is more than what we can say about the whole F1 Andretti debacle, or Mario treating the team like his own.

Regarding the curse, i also think it's just TV drama. Then Arie Luyendyk must have an inverse curse, because many times he would be nowhere all year then suddenly he would take the win.



Regarding the Fittipaldi Orange juice thing, it amuses me how some people can hate the guy to this day for that. A likable character, great driver, always positive, sure he wanted to promote his juice, or maybe he didn't really like milk, but hell, the milk is a sponsor thing! I don't see it as much as "breaking tradition" as the F1 drivers not using champagne in the arab countries. Who cares what he drinks at the end... AJ also refused the milk once, but i guess being AJ, people would be scared he would go to the stands and smack them one by one

There's a reason why someone like Michael Andretti only has 1 championship despite being around so long, it's the same why Jason Plato only has 2 championships.
While they are very fast, they are very talented to put themselves in situations that'll lead them to big time failure.

Curiously, no one mentioned Micro Andretti, despite being the least talented in the family, he almost broke "the curse".

Richard Wilks wrote:

Regarding the Fittipaldi Orange juice thing, it amuses me how some people can hate the guy to this day for that.

If he was american, it wouldn't have been a problem.

But that was on crapwagons, which doesn't count as racing cars

My bad

JP Campmajo wrote:

Curiously, no one mentioned Micro Andretti, despite being the least talented in the family, he almost broke "the curse".

Micro Andretti!

JP Campmajo wrote:

If he was american, it wouldn't have been a problem.

I think you are absolutely right about this.

I think it's fair to say Mario is the most versatile race driver in history. If anyone wants to call BS on me, please do. 

Sorry Jason, but jacky Ickx would disagree He just lacked the F1 title to be hailed as a true great, but his F1 performances were convincing enough on their own.

Richard Wilks wrote:

Sorry Jason, but jacky Ickx would disagree He just lacked the F1 title to be hailed as a true great, but his F1 performances were convincing enough on their own.

Yes, I agree. Ickx was incredibly versatile.

I'd like to add Jimmy Clark too, anything he raced, he pretty much won.

Richard Coxon wrote:

I'd like to add Jimmy Clark too, anything he raced, he pretty much won.

Yes, true.  

I would put for the same reasons Mark Donohue at the same level, a guy who also raced and won everything except F1 (Probably because he didn't try seriously and didn't have the proper car).

Ickx and Nelson Piquet Sr. were quite versatile, but they didn't succed in ovals (Ickxs didn't even attempt it IIRC) which for me is ignoring an important area of high level autoracing.

Clark did superb in F1 and showed he can turn left only at Indy, but I think he had a more difficult time with slower touring cars.

Sadly we will never see again a driver like Mario because no driver is allowed to compete in different series anymore. Specialization has eliminated the best all around driver  

Ickx didnt try ovals, but neither any of the others tried rally raids for example, wich is totally different of everything else, or motorcycle racing, where his motorsports career started.

LOL at Alberto's stats    Is that Frank having a bit of fun?

You are the first to notice, I changed them a week ago

Well Clark won the 1964 BSCC outright in the Cortina, Winning every championship race that season.

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

Sadly we will never see again a driver like Mario because no driver is allowed to compete in different series anymore. Specialization has eliminated the best all around driver  

Closest we have is maybe Sebastien Loeb. Shame he is maybe too old to give a shot at single seaters, be F1 or Indycars (yes, the cardboard boxes i know, but still they are the ones racing at indy... )

Ah u have to love Jacky Ickx, weird man though
He says he never wanted to be a racecar driver.


check out:  

"Frankly, Jacky Ickx"

i dunno if i am allowed to give torrent.

pm me if u are interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6OTuxYVfcM

Richard Wilks wrote:

Senna wasn't the nicest guy around, and Prost is not called "political" for no reason!

I think it's hard to call either of them "not nice", I think the best word for them is arrogant. Very arrogant They proved off track that they can both be great personalities at the same time, although Senna being Senna his character is often promoted far higher than it probably was (and this comes from a Senna fan )

I reckon Alonso could be a very versatile driver. I'm hoping when he retires at the end of his McLaren contract he finally jumps ship to the WEC and proves he's firmly capable there.

Also, Montoya is a fairly relevant name often forgotten. Dominated on both road course and oval in his first season of CART straight out of F3000, and then was one of the drivers closest to challenging Schumacher in F1. Also won the Indy 500, 3 time winner of the Daytona 24, and had good moments in the Cup series.

Quote :

Well Clark won the 1964 BSCC outright in the Cortina, Winning every championship race that season

That's right, I mistook him with somebody else

Ickx also raced motorbikes, that is right, but with that yardstick Surtees would be better has he won both F1 and top motorbike championships.

Another versatile driver not yet mentioned is Sir Stirling Moss, though he never won the F1. But he did great in Mile Miglia and Sports Cars

Anyway comparing is always difficult, it also depends on how much you open the disciplines range. IMO if you limit things to road racing then you should include Road/Oval, Sprint/Endurance and Open wheel/Sportscars/GT/Touring cars.

Mario was probably the best all around in those areas. Not the best in each, of course, but the best who succeded in all of them.

Well then i believe Mario Andretti would have competition from at least Graham Hill. The man won the tripple crown, something Mario never achevied (altough he sure tried!)

Some consider triple crown the F1 championship (And not the Monaco GP) as on par with the Indy 500 and the Le Mans 24h, in which case Mario would have won it. And, in any case, I believe a Daytona 500 or the USAC championship is as worthy as the Monaco GP, if not more. I think Graham was as good as Mario, but his career probably just didn't span over so many different disciplines.

Mario Andretti never won the 24 hours of Le Mans