Lapping and being lapped hints. Please comment!

dear HSO racing friends,

this year we have been blessed with a great amount of new gentleman drivers, and while this makes races even more exciting and fun, it also can easily become a nightmare when there is a need to lap and being lapped, be it in race or qualifying. For the faster drivers it must be frustrating to be held by us slower ones, and for us it makes very nervous and unsatisfying to be holding up and screwing the race of a faster fellow racer (Not to mention our own one).

Well, one of the main problems is that us slow guys don't always know what is expected from us, and therefore I open this topic so I can hear all recommendations and hints from the faster guys about it, so we all can improve our racing experience.

So, what I want to know is things like:

-Where do you want us to move over (Besides straights, where it is easy, of course), turn enter, turn exit? -Do you expect us to stay on the line and simply slow down, or to move out of it?
-What is better, that we make it easy for you to outbrake us, or to outdrag us at turn exit?
-Start any movement to let other faster driver through only after blue flag is waved, or before, and when?
-Any things that shall never be done like "do not change line once you enter your own braking area, etc?"

Last, I would like to ask if possible that either some of the faster guys or the administrators suggest before each race the best places of the track to let a faster guy through, and how you recommend that we do it. Something like: "Lapping spots: Turn 3 slow driver move out of line after exit, and before turn 4", or "Turn 5 move out of line if blue flag already waving and brake early, then take turn close to inside" etc

I'm sure that if all of us on the track know those spots and how we are supposed to be lapped/lap, this will make racing much safe and enjoying for all. as the slow guys will not be nervous and will be able to prepare well the maneuver to let the faster through, and the faster one can easily be more patient knowing when and how he will be let through and make the best out of it.

Thank you!

Good topic
I'll give you my opinion tomorrow

First of all, very good idea Alberto. The more unknowns we can avoid on track, the less incidents we should have during races. In theory at least...

Starting from there, some comments from an experienced back-marker, one with a vast experience in being lapped .

1° Notwithstanding that it's a superb idea to have this discussion, I would suggest not basing it on our experiences with the F5000's at Laguna Seca. That combo was probably one of the worst for both those lapping as those being lapped. Powerfull twitchy cars, that are a challenge even when just driven alone on the track, a large field and a rather narrow track with virtually no good overtaking spots... Lapping and being lapped was always gonna be tricky here. So I would suggest to have this conversation reflect more "normal" race conditions. I'm convinced that e.g. Edmonton will already be a lot easier from a lapping point of view.

2° Identifying some spots that are appopriate to lap/being lapped is a good idea, on the condition that it's clearly understood as just a guideline. The principle remaining that the lapper should be able to lap as soon as this is safely possible. If the next "appropriate spot to lap" is e.g. 4 turns and 2 km down the track and a lapper has a clear possibility to lap provided the one being lapped hands him some goodwill, the one lapping is, in my opinion, entitled to that goodwill. It would be, in my humble opinion, a mistake, and a mistake prone to entail accidents, to then cling to the idea that "the appropiate spot" is still 4 turns down the road. From my vast experience of being lapped, I'm convinced that the quicker you get rid of that alien behind you, the better it is. Also for the one being lapped. The sooner the fast driver is past, the sooner you'll be able to feel comfortable again and get on with your own race. So, identify spots pre-race yes. But this should never be "a set in stone"-thing, in my opinion.

3° Notwithstanding the above, I still think it's a good idea to have some places appointed as the ones ideal for lapping. I would however also suggest to complete this by identifying some spots that are on the opposite fully unappropriate to pass. E.g. the fast kink inbetween the first complex of turns and the turn up the hill at Laguna Seca was, in my opinion, completely unapt to pass with the F5000's. You basically required the entire track there to take that kink. A car lapping on the inside was a true risk for both cars ending upside down. When being lapped, it is also funny that you can distinguish the real good racers and the just good hotlappers. The real good racers seem to sense such inapropriate spots and almost never try to lap in such a spot.

4° In my opinion, the most difficult in lapping, and that is for both the lapper and the being lapped, is that the one is never 100% sure of what the other is going to do. It therefore helps a lot if there is some consistency in how the lapped one drives. In that respect, and this is just to illustrate, I, when being lapped, normally will never slow on the straights and will also keep on to the racing line on the straights. However, as soon as I have a lapper behind me, in the next turn, to the extend possible, I will take a very outside line leaving the generally faster inside line open to the lapper. That in general allows them through. I however stress "to the extend possible". There are turns where you just need the entire track to make it through. In such turns the above is impossible. A good example is the aformenetioned kink at Laguna. Or Tamburello on the old Imola. Or Eau Rouge at Spa.

5° Finally, a delicate one. The drivers being lapped may be in a fight of their own. And then comes the tricky question. Imagine two backmarkers being in a serious fight where backmarker 1 is the one leading backmarker 2. When a lapper comes up, is backmarker 2 entitled to take benefit from the room that backmarker 1 is giving for the lapper and sneek through together with the lapper? We've had this discussion in another league and the outcome was that backmarker 2 can indeed do that because that's part of racing. I think that's fine, but I also think that's it only human that backmarker 1 will have this on his mind and that he will not only be looking at creating a safe driveby for the lapper, but will at the same time be looking at defending his position. That's only human, I guess. The two are often however not complimentary. The result often being that lapping them becomes more tricky.

That's all.

As said, just my 5 cents.

Timo

Very good comments Timo, I just learned some things that will be very useful

Two quick points:

1) I was not thinking of just Laguna, but also Oran Park last week with TCL and in general, the huge difference I have noticed this year with so many more people on the track.

2) As I said in my first post the idea is just to indicate the "ideal" spots to let someone through, but of course the sooner you can do that the better, and it shouldn't be cast in stone -just be a good hint. To add the spots where an attempt to let someone through should never be made is excellent, as certainly that can be the most dangerous situation possible, much more than doing something unexpected in a wide area with lots of room.

Its really up to the faster driver to find safe passing place imho,going offline entering corner or exiting corner can only result in slower driver going off track,and maybe damaging car,

From the lapped driver's point of view, I think there is no technique that will work every time because every situation is different. If you use the same technique everytime, there will be situations you won't be able to deal with. Best thing is : think with your head.

There is however a rule everybody should apply (no matter if you're the lapped or the lapping driver) : never change line during braking. Clearly show to the other driver what you want to do at the next turn, very early before the braking zone if possible.

The "never quit the racing line and let the faster driver find its way around you" thing works well most of the time, unless the track is narrow and/or doesn't provide good overtaking spots, like yesterday at Laguna Seca were it was virtually impossible to outbrake another driver anywhere else than at the last corner (which was still tricky).

In that case, the best behaviour for the lapped driver is to pull out of the racing line at the exit of a turn, and accelerate slowly in order to let the other driver pass (idealy exiting a slow turn, doing that exiting a fast turn could surprise the guy behind you).

Leaving the racing line before a braking zone and braking early also works, and makes you lose less time, but it is very dangerous to do entering a fast turn, without enough margin, the faster driver's line will cut right in front of the lapped car, who will probably be surprised, or worst.

But you also have to consider NOT letting the faster guy pass sometimes, especially in a fast and/or narrow section (like Laguna Seca's turn 1, followed by esses). Go through the turn as usual, and if the faster driver has to lose a bit of time so be it !

I see way too many drivers trying to give way as early as possible, thinking they are ruining somebody else's race I guess. First that's not true, you rarely lose a race for a couple of seconds lost in traffic. And most of the times that results in them going off track, losing tons of time. That's very dangerous, for the driver of course as he could hit something off track in the process, and for everybody else because rejoining the track is always a risky manoeuvre. Don't forget you have your own race.

Quote :

I see way too many drivers trying to give way as early as possible, thinking they are ruining somebody else's race I guess

You have a point there: many of us seem to be overwhelmed by that thought, but with lap time differences of just 2-3 seconds between pole and backmarkers, holding the guy behind for some corners should not be that terrible, maybe at most you are making him lose 0.5 on that lap but everyone is much safer

The problem is however very different during qualifying, as holding someone up for 0.5 seconds in a race is not the same as during his hotlap -and with cold tires after exiting the pits, the speed differences can be enormous, much more than those 0.5s-. In those cases it's very difficult not to head directly out of the track in the attempt to make way ... no wonder than in the dangerous ovals they qualify driving alone 2 launched laps.

It's too bad there isn't some way to signal the leading drivers that you are allowing them by (other than texting, which is obviously not going to work). I'm thinking an arm going up or a blinker or something...

i usually have no problem to overtake lapped cars, i'm patient, often too much

i have just an advice:
as slower driver or lapped one, don't ever stop on the track to let the faster pilots pass you...
it's useless and so dangerous...
as Gui, i'd like to say: keep focused on your race, don't stress, don't stop for others, don't dive in the sand to let others pass, HAVE YOUR RACE, keep your line...
drive as usual but reduce the throttle for 1% getting out of corners and brake 1 second longer... and faster pilots will find a way to pass

Jason White wrote:

It's too bad there isn't some way to signal the leading drivers that you are allowing them by (other than texting, which is obviously not going to work). I'm thinking an arm going up or a blinker or something...

Horn? Although that might be distracting :/

Closest thing to it is raising the arm in GPL, although it is more used to thank (or show the finger ) than to let someone through. None of our cars have a horn though, as a true racing car doesn't have one .

I totally agree with Gui's post

je n ai pas eu le temps de lire tous vos posts et surtout de les traduire donc je vais faire un peu mon loser et donner mon avis en francais .

pour moi il y a 4 points ultra importants pour q un dépassement de lapper se passe le mieux possible .

1er : et surement le plus important : arreter de stresser , NO STRESS je sais que ca ne doit pas etre toujours facile mais c est super important car le stress entraine généralement l accident ( ex crash avec Diego hier soir ) .

2eme : ne laisser jamais passer un leader dans une courbe ( ou entree ) rapide qui plus est si elle est a trajectoire UNIQUE comme le 1er virage de Laguna Seca hier soir .

3eme : ne jamais freiner sur la trajectoire = la catastrophe assurée

4eme : des que vous avez pris une décision ( qu elle vous semble bonne ou mauvaise ne jamais changé d avis au dernier moment )

en gros , toujours priviligié les lignes droites qu elles soient courtes ou pas , et ne pas hésité a bien montrer ou faire comprendre son intention aux leaders .


apres on pourra faire ou écrire tout ce que l on veut , de mon point de vue on ne pourra jamais éviter certains incidents , l important est juste d essayer de les minimiser au maximun !!!! car un accrochage est toujours du a une multitude de facteurs que l on ne pourra jamais tous gérer dans un laps de temps si court ... et qui viennent du lapper comme du lappeur .

mais surtout , NE STRESSER PAS , RELAX .



pour illustrer voici 4 petites videos d hier soir ( strictement rien contre Diego a l interieur je précise ) simplement pour montrer un exemple .

tour 7 Diego prend le virage numéro 1 a 160 kmh
tour 8 Diego alors que moi et Lorenzo sommes juste derriere lui freine encore plus qu a son habitude sur tous les autres tours et exactement au meme moment que sur la vidéo du tour 7 ou il etait a 160 kmh sur celle ci il tombe a 130 kmh et c est le crash ( et pour moi c est l exemple parfait du stress qui entraine qu il freine en pleine trajectoire dans une courbe ultra rapide a trajectoire unique )

What a great idea .... Dont be shy you know you want to pull over



I Think overtaking and being lapped all comes with experience and i think when you
have done a few seasons here you will have a better understanding .........
I Know which drivers i can trust and which drivers i need to get out of the way of literally
but on the whole racing on HSO has been very rewarding ....

Laguna is too small a track to worry about it if you put 24 cars on any track there are going to be some dodgy overtaking manouvres but make it a small track like Laguna and its going to be a lottery even for Aliens ...

Some mods are ok if you touch but i would say F5000 is the hardest as the slightest touch on the front and your wing is gone but this makes it much more of a challenge to bring the car home ....

I Used to pull over the 1st sight of a blue flag you get a fair amount of time before you get penalised so take your time dont
make any rush movements and most of all just enjoy it ....I Used to worry about which side i would lets cars past but it really does not matter it is better to hold the racing line .... Let them overtake you ....

Atlanta ffsca race was an exceptional circumstance as i feared for my life

Carl Larrad wrote:

Atlanta ffsca race was an exceptional circumstance as i feared for my life

From a lapped perspective:
Always check your mirrors and be aware of people around you. Never change the line near the braking point, if you want to be nice do it early.

From the leader perspective:
Don't trail the slowest car when he changes lane, it will confuse him and he might try to change the lane again. Never ever assume he has the same breaking point as you.




and of course the wall of shame:
http://richardsf1.com/2010/05/11/top-10-mobile-chicanes/

Andrej Batic wrote:

http://richardsf1.com/2010/05/11/top-10-mobile-chicanes/

it looks Richards has a tooth against french drivers

I Quite like the idea of a Wall of Shame
then we can see who those bad boys are

And also a Wall of Fair Play for us Gentlemen drivers

Make also a Wall of best spanish speaking lads at HSO, so I can at least win something and see me on a wall albeit not smashed into ...

I just found this very good article while looking for something else (As it usually happens ). It's a very interesting reading and I think much in the spirit of leagues like HSO

http://simnascar.wordpress.com/help/driving-etiquette/

I sometimes drive my car on real racetracks and what i learned about lapping or being lapped is this.

1. if you are being lapped, dont change anything in your driving. Just drive as usual so it's up to the lapper to be able to overtake you. I you change anything, you might cause misunderstanding (breaking where there's no need to, change of line that the lapper can not anticipate.

2. if you are to lap someone, use your brain. First, dont forget that the guy before you may not have noticed you are the leader of the race despite blue flags Dont try to rush your overtaking, if you are faster you'll overtake. Secondly, dont put too much pressure on the slower guy, he'll be looking in his mirrors, will make an error and if so you wont be able to avoid it, end of the race for both of you.

I just have 2 things and none is new to anybody I guess.

I know both situations (lapping and being lapped) and the only thing the lapped car can do is to stay in the line and not slowing down vigorously. The working driver should be the faster one, so he is the one who has to do the overtaking manouver.
For the lapping car, the only thing is patience and remembering that the lapped car is slower, so you must take in mind that the slower driver brakes earlier (usually) and has less corner speed .

Other than that is pure common sense and good judgement to be a gentleman driver

I, too, think it's primarily up to the lapping driver to find their way through. The drivers about to be lapped may be, and often are, fighting for position, it's unfair to ask them to yield the second the leader catches them so that he won't lose a second or two.
Also, being quick doesn't automatically grant you the right of way, neither in the race nor any other session. Once or twice I've witnessed a quick driver, on his outlap, passing slower cars on their qualifying lap. That's pure assholeism.

Jukka Maattanen wrote:

That's pure assholeism.

While I was on the test servers, and a car was coming up to me, I would (if running similar speed) would look for the next braking corner, and take the corner as I would but wider, giving space for the faster car to come through. I feel that is probably the safest route, rather than the faster car having to go out of his/her way to come through.